40 replies to this topic

[minor life]

I am hearing 1000 Islands is bound for Watertown proper and out of the woods so to speak. I am also hearing Akwasasnee (sp) may be done. Dayton IMO is perfect for the FHl or NAHL, I think most would agree although it is a tough AA market, it could be a stellar A level market. As far as Queen City is concerned, I was told recently they are still looking for investors and the rumored AAHL revival never got off the ground. I meantioned Fraser before simply based on arena size, not on any real interest from a party I am aware of. That said, Traverse City, although small arena size, could be perfect. If a team went in there and brought in tough hockey like the old CEHL, they could sell out every night. Another place could be Lapeer, they did well in the AAHL. If the FHL offered some incentives to some former AAHL people to come in, I think you could see at least two Michigan teams. I am unaware of any such incentives being talked about though. I will go this far.......if the FHL reads this board and if they are truely interested in Michigan markets they need to make their calls quick because one of two for sure owners is going junior in the next 10 days if a pro team is not in the cards.

[a komets fan]

minor life, on 15 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Find me 6 to 8 arenas that are vacant, in the mid west, have reasonable travel and all have at least 4000 seats. It cant be done. The SPHL is successful because they are in non traditional markets with snowbirds that have moved to the area. They may not have the USHL or NAHL, but they have football, and the south is all about football.

I'm not talking about vacant arenas, I'm talking about pro teams that are (Dayton, maybe a Bloomington, etc.)/were struggling (Port Huron, Flint, etc.) that had there been a stable, nonglorified beer league they would have joined rather than going to the NAHL.

Yeah, football is everything in the south but is done in late November at the latest.

[kwey24]

minor life, on 16 April 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

I am hearing 1000 Islands is bound for Watertown proper and out of the woods so to speak. I am also hearing Akwasasnee (sp) may be done. Dayton IMO is perfect for the FHl or NAHL, I think most would agree although it is a tough AA market, it could be a stellar A level market. As far as Queen City is concerned, I was told recently they are still looking for investors and the rumored AAHL revival never got off the ground. I meantioned Fraser before simply based on arena size, not on any real interest from a party I am aware of. That said, Traverse City, although small arena size, could be perfect. If a team went in there and brought in tough hockey like the old CEHL, they could sell out every night. Another place could be Lapeer, they did well in the AAHL. If the FHL offered some incentives to some former AAHL people to come in, I think you could see at least two Michigan teams. I am unaware of any such incentives being talked about though. I will go this far.......if the FHL reads this board and if they are truely interested in Michigan markets they need to make their calls quick because one of two for sure owners is going junior in the next 10 days if a pro team is not in the cards.

I'm actually pleased to hear that Watertown proper may get the Privateers. I know the City of Watertown was looking to make some upgrades to the arena to help it meet some new codes, but it used to seat around 1,200 and I know seating wasn't going to decrease. Some, if Watertown's arena is ready, it'd be great to see, because Watertown has its own TV, newspaper, radio, and some population base to work with, and existing 1000 Islands fans could still go.

It's also interesting you mentioned Lapeer. I came very close to typing that if Fraser was under consideration, I might consider Lapeer more, just because Lapeer had some demonstrated interest. A well-run Lapeer team could certainly at least be a stop-gap team, with an eventual eye toward moving to Flint (Warriors say they're committed for two more seasons, I guess).

What's the status of the Traverse City North Stars?

Would Battle Creek be a possibility to join the FHL?

[minor life]

I dont think Battle Creek will ever see pro hockey again.Too bad because BC was a growing market, but if they dont have minor pro this year, I dont see how they can recapture their fan base and keep them from going back to Kzoo. Traverse Citys only hope now is a minor pro or AAU junior team. No Tier II Junior program will go there again, and a USAH Tier III team cant get around Kalkaskas 75 mile radius protection. TC Arena management put all their eggs in the North Stars basket and now they have a huge hole to fill in ice time and revenue. With all due respect, Centre Ice management is a little too arrogant and so is the youth association. They had an opportunity last year to work with Kalkaska but blew them off. Not only did they blow them off but the TC youth association told teams, coaches and players that they were not allowed to buy extra ice in Kalkaska or they would face suspension within the association.

They had an opportunity for an FHL team commitment as recently as February and blew them off. Arena management thought there would be a franchise swap with the NAHL going to the Soo and the NOJHL going to Traverse City. That didnt happen and wont happen now. They had a chance to be involved in an AAHL relaunch and blew that off. The opinion being expressed by people in and around the arena was that someone would save the North Stars, or someone would relocated another Tier II team there. Why would anyone do that when the arena is expensive and the fan support was pitiful? "Because we are Traverse City, we have money, and we hold Red Wings camp here." Seriously that was an answer I received from one person, paraphrased of course.

What Centre Ice hasnt calculated outside of the 40K in ice fees lost is concession revenue, beer revenue, reduced advertising value to sponsors because of reduced arena traffic, and reduced economic impact in the community with the loss of 25 player residents. Not tomention all the hotel room sales, groceries, entertainment after games and other items important to the area in winter. The youth association hasnt calculated a raise in ice fees because the arena needs to make up for the hole in the budget, and families in the association dont even see it coming. The whole thing has ripples that will be felt for years and they could have been avoided.

[kwey24]

Some of that back story explains a little bit why the Soo Eagles even joined the NAHL. That move did not make sense to me, in large part because of the uncertainty surrounding the Michigan teams in the NAHL. Marquette's not around any more, Alpena isn't in the NAHL any more, the North Stars' attendance does not support an NAHL team, Kalamazoo's attendance is pathetic, and Michigan (Flint) and Port Huron are somewhat up in the air long term.

So, if the North Stars are indeed history, then I certainly do hope things come together for Traverse City to get Single-A hockey owned by knowledgeable ownership. As desperately as Danville needs teams in its vicinity, I would certainly hope that the FHL would consider allowing other teams into the league for little to no expansion fee, etc. If another Michigan team were to follow in quick order, then that'd be three teams in the region. If it could be the return of the Battle Creek Revolution to pro hockey, all the better. If the FHL could get Dayton, Traverse City, and Battle Creek, that'd be fantastic news. If not Battle Creek and somewhere else, fine. I'd even be thrilled if the Chi-Town Shooters returned. Can all of these markets survive if the FHL ever moves up to a league requiring 2,000 fans per game? No. But, they might just be able to make it under the current model and serve as the basis for Single-A expansion in the region when some of the bigger markets almost inevitably lose the hockey they currently have. Plus, perhaps one day there is a stratification to Single-A hockey in the region with one model that requires 1,000 and another closer to 2,000 (nothing wrong with that).

In reality, then this might be the FHL's only chance to set the deck for Single-A hockey in the region. I have said this before, the FHL has a real chance to corner the market on Single-A hockey in three regions--not immediately, but eventually. If I'm the FHL, I do almost anything it takes to help fill in at least three teams close to Danville for 2012-13. If the FHL can establish a legitimate presence in the Midwest, then they are the existing game in the region when Bloomington, Muskegon, Flint, and Port Huron lose their current hockey teams.

[Drake8]

Im well aware of the troubles of Flint Dayton PH and Bloomington but is muskegon in trouble also? Their attendance has only dropped slightly since the move compared to the other IHL cities. Has there been talk of them folding and getiing pro hockey back? in a perfect world muskegon dayton flint bloomington and port huron would create a midwest division in a new and improved FHL that would be comparable to the IHL. hopefully they can drop some of the lesser teams/arenas and maybe capitalize on some old open UHL markets.

[DetroitRocks]

Minor Life and others, I will just throw out that there is ice time to fill at the Capital Centre in Lansing. As you probably know, they have undergone some changes recently. The main rink seats about 1,500 and they do have a liquor license (unless that has changed). I know Lansing could not support AA or above because of MSU but I do think this level could possibly work because of a cheap alternative to MSU and games where you could see fighting and drink beer. I would not be shocked if this area could get around 1,000 per game if marketed right and some local names were involved. I really think this rink needs to fill ice right now and this could generate revenue for the place. What do you think?

[minor life]

I could not wish the USHL to fail in any market. If Muskegon starts winning next season they will be fine in the USHL.

The AAHL had good players, filled a void for IHL and some ECHL call ups. It was entertaining and cheap. But every team lost money every year. Why are we even hopping this happens again? Are some people willing to loose a little every year to own a team? Sure, some people with experience are willing to do it. The problem comes when you try to find 6 teams minimum that can actually come close to loosing less than 50 to 100K per year. Most people cant afford that, and if they can, they could probably afford a CHL team but dont go that route because they see loosing more money. I am aware of two people in Michigan that want to, and could make teams work. The FHL has spoken to both of them, but not in months. Neither of them would be willing to start a team for next season after May 1st.

[minor life]

DetroitRocks, on 21 April 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Minor Life and others, I will just throw out that there is ice time to fill at the Capital Centre in Lansing. As you probably know, they have undergone some changes recently. The main rink seats about 1,500 and they do have a liquor license (unless that has changed). I know Lansing could not support AA or above because of MSU but I do think this level could possibly work because of a cheap alternative to MSU and games where you could see fighting and drink beer. I would not be shocked if this area could get around 1,000 per game if marketed right and some local names were involved. I really think this rink needs to fill ice right now and this could generate revenue for the place. What do you think?

I have seen the arena, and I think it could work if you have a ton of money to invest. It costs more to operate in major markets because media is more expensive to buy. If you dont spend on media in a city like Lansing, you wont make it to Christmas. Ice costs in Lansing arent cheap, housing isnt cheap, and I dont know if the arena would have a dedicated dressing room for a team.

[Drake8]

Something similar to the SPHL (Southern Professional Hockey League's) model would be outstanding. However, I do not know if their are enough teams to start, with sold owners who could step in. The Federal Hockey League just seems to be another pro league, similar to the All American Hockey League that could be short lived.


I couldnt agree more. The FHLs only hope is stop expanding to marginal arenas. I think the North/Northeast couold have a league similar to the SPHL. Their would be a northeast division and a midwest the thing that would make it work would be the fact they wouldnt have to play eachother at all/that much. Hopefully after a couple of years they could be on the SPHL level and maybe the two champions could square off. Recognition from higher leagues would also help Single A and for that matter the ECHL/CHL situation also. This is my view for a single A league, once all of these midwest owners realize that 400 fans a game wont cut it. some of these might be a little hard to imagine but this would be in a couple of years were the CHL/ECHL situation would all be settled and the teams that folded or got left out the ECHL/CHL would be looking for a place to play, along with the strong FHL teams. basically it would be a new UHL but it wouldnt be competing with AA leagues.

ATLANTIC
Danbury
New Jersey
1000 Islands (Have they folded? i know they were having rink troubles)
Wheeling (would love for them to stay in the ECHL but new owners will probably get sick of losing money/low attendance in a couple of years
Johnstown
Erie ( OHL possibly going to hamilton, old rink but its good for single A standards)

POSSIBILITIES
Jamestown (talking about renovations to add seats and they are suffering in NAHL)
Youngstown (beautiful facility would be GREAT for the league but if they were to move from junior the ECHL would come calling)
Lewiston (All they want is USHL and they have pulled out of talks with FHL but what if it never comes? quite a gamble, maybe if their isnt USHL hockey there in a couple of years and this proposed league is doing alright things would be different

MIDWEST
Bloomington (AA future is uncertain and unless the USHL came which i really dont see they could be looking for hockey)
Flint (warriors have failed, the people of flint want pro hockey back at perani)
Port huron (falcons are having same attendance problems has warriors)
Danville (more regional opponents could make for better attendance)
Dayton (already rumored to be making single A move anybody have info on this?)
Muskegon (longshot but attendance has been dropping)

POSSIBILITIES
st.charles (only if they are not an ECHL or CHL team in a couple of years)
chicago (amazing rink compared to the rest of the league. remember this is years from now, if somebody wanted to try it and was scared of ECHL budget why not?

It would be ideal to have a 11-12 team league with anyone of the markets i mentioned above. 2 divisions would rarely play except for finals keeping regional rivalries and travel costs down.

SPHL

GULF
Mississippi S.
Mississippi RK.
Huntsville
Bossier Shreveport
Louisiana
Texas (Brahmas)

COASTAL
Knoxville
Pensacola
Columbus
Augusta
Fayettville
Jacksonville (peviously housed SPHL and they have a very nice arena also heard they wanted hockey back)

POSSIBILITES FOR LEAGUE
Rio Grande (probably NAHL)
Laredo (probably NAHL)
anyone have info on them? there was a talk about SPHL but the NAHL seems to be best option.

not much would change in the SPHL as they have a pretty good set up. a few questions though
1. could/will bossier return?
2. do rio or laredo have any chance of staying pro or is it NAHL or bust?

Edited by Drake8, 22 April 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[minor life]

Rio and Laredo are back in the CHL. I would be looking for some interesting CHL news tomorrow though. Not from the CHL itself. My take is simple, I am no longer a believer that single A hockey in the Mid West is a viable business. There are many reasons for this, arenas, owners, economy...... Until Junior stops taking some of these markets, and until AA becomes stable, Single A pro is a money pit. Why would owners be going junior all the time these days if they thought pro hockey could even come close to breaking even? The reason is simple. Once an accountant get his hands on the model or the books, they dont work nearly as well as junior. In the end owning a junior team or pro team is an ego boost and a toy for most owners, and most owners make decisions based on money. When an accountant looks at the numbers and you can see him throw up a little in his mouth I take it as a bad sign.

[Mr Ricochet]

Well Johnstown can be taken of the board, for now anyway, the NAHL has landed there.

[kwey24]

It'll be interesting to see how Johnstown reacts to the NAHL and what sort of attendance the team will get. It's going to be a better situation than the Alaska Avalanche, though (although, I've read the team is not merely being relocated but is being sold and relocated). If the NAHL team can average 1,500 fans per game, that'd be good (paying fans, of course).

I still don't think junior hockey is the end-all answer. If fighting were to be banned in junior hockey, things change big time. Big time.

We'll see to what degree junior hockey is a superior answer to Single-A hockey in some markets by what happens, long term, in Muskegon, Flint, Port Huron, and now Johnstown. Can the NAHL work in Texas? It sure looks like it? The old Midwest and now Mid-Atlantic? We'll see.

I have little doubt that 2,000 fans would come out each game for a well-run, professional Single-A team in Muskegon at Walker Arena, and if you're operating on a model that allows that... I have little doubt that 1,500 fans would come out each game for a well-run, professional Single-A team in Flint (maybe even 2,000 if they had hope of not being patsies to a specific team in a welfare hockey league). I feel confident Port Huron could turn out 1,500 for such a Single-A team, too, and the same goes for Johnstown.

I'm just not sold on the NAHL being able to capture the interest of these former minor pro markets in the Midwest and Great Lakes region. Maybe it'll slowly happen, and I understand why the NAHL is trying it (and not just greed by the league commissioner/president). Since it looks like nobody is going to try to start a Single-A league in Texas, have at it NAHL. It'd be great to see a swath of teams down there averaging 1,750+ fans per game, if not over 2,000 fans per game.

Edited by kwey24, 25 April 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[PH hockey fan1]

I would agree that Single- A hockey could work again here in Michigan. The core pro hockey fans are still loyal to their past teams and cities. A small, regional league could work for the upper midwest. The NAHL has been good to at least keep interest in hockey alive, but I don't think it is going to be the long term answer for the hockey fans of Michigan.
The Falcons are doing great and will probably advance to the Robertson Cup, but they are not creating the following that even the Icehawks had. I still contend that cities that support their team all year want that team to have the chance to win the league and cup in that town and not a nuetral site in Texas.
With a well planned league format and controlled cost, I think it could work. Flint and Port Huron would love to renew the pro rivalry they use to enjoy.

[kwey24]

In discussing Michigan locations, rink seating capacity is important. I see numbers tossed around, particularly with arenas with bleachers seating. I just want go over a few things when determining bleacher seating.

Generally, the minimum width allowed per person is 18 inches (there are, of course, recommendations for 22 to 24 inches for more comfortable seating). But, if we proceed from the 18 inches allowed (determined by localities and whatnot). Let's also note that the minimum width generally allowed for aisles is four feet (width dividers, so 2 feet on each side of that).

So, let's say a standard arena has bleacher seating from goal line to goal line (which will hopefully be 180 feet or so). Then, let's say this will have a standard of six aisles (one on each end, four intertior). You now have 156 feet for the bleachers. Divide that by 18 and you get seating for 104 people per row. Then, multiple the number of rows and you then have the seating capacity.

This is roughly the setup for The Edge Arena in Holland, Michigan. It has 9 rows, and its bleachers run from goal to to goal line (roughly), and it has five or six aisles. So roughly, we now that The Edge seats around 936 people.

Now, the last photos I saw of Traverse City's arena is that their bleachers did not span blue line to blue line. They appeared to be about 20 feet short of each blue line. If that is indeed the case (still the case), they'd have about 114' of bleacher space after accounting for their aisles (six aisles). They'd be roughly bleacher space for 76 people per row. They have 9 rows, and that multiplies out to 684. There's also the new mezzanine bleachers (two or three rows that don't have the best view in that I don't think you can actually see all of the one offensive zone when seated in the bleachers (similar to the side boards the University of Illinois' ice arena, where the bleachers are raised above the ice surface in a bowl overlooking the ice sheet). In the end, when you factor in the lounge, suite, handcapped area, and endboard bistro tables, you'd be hard-pressed to get much more than 1,000 per game in Traverse City's arena (even though I see numbers like 1,500 thrown around on various sites online).

The same goes for The Summit at Capital Centre in Lansing. It may have 14 rows, but it doesn't run the entire distance from goal line to goal line. In fact, nearly an entire offensive zone has no seating (official dimensions for an offensive/defensive zone is 75 feet - 64 feet plus 11 feet behind goal line). I'd be incline to put the seating for that arena closer to 800. There is additional space to work with for things, so you could potentially consider Lansing under current Single-A models, but it could never compete in a Single-A league designed for teams that can average 1,500 or more fans per game.

So, just numbers to remember when gauging the seating capacity of an arena.

[TcFlint]

Center Ice Arena in TC can get anywhere from 1,100 to 1,500 into the arena. In fact, they get more than that number whenever the Red Wings are training in Traverse City between the two ice surfaces and grandstands at Center Ice. Off and on rumors of Single A and even AA pro leagues has been going on for several years, but who knows. I live about a mile from Center Ice here in Traverse City but did not go to one single TC North Stars game this year. If, and it is a big if, a Single A Pro Team ever did come here, I would go to a lot of games.

[j the teacher]

wait, what? Trouble in Bloomington....reveal your sources (LOL I've been hearing about troubles in BLM since I moved here in '08).

What's troubling me is the lack of PR this team has......case in point, the Blaze GM was on WJBC (local radio station) 4 weeks ago in April announcing a new coach will be announced by June 1st. Granted it isn't June 1st, but can't they say "we've narrowed the pool of coaches to THIS MANY?". Also the last dated post on the Blaze site was April 10th and that really didn't have anything to do with the Blaze. It almost feels like last year all over again......

They need to take some pointers from the minor league Baseball team in Normal. They were at my school the other day and GAVE EACH kid 4 vouchers for ANY Tuesday night home game the rest of the season.

The Blaze offered reduced price tickets to 1 game last year....

[Mr Ricochet]

j the teacher, on 11 May 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

wait, what? Trouble in Bloomington....reveal your sources (LOL I've been hearing about troubles in BLM since I moved here in '08).

Indeed. You know J, as a Bloomy hockey fan myself, although 90 miles away, the whole scene has become so mundane I rarely follow anymore. I long ago took a show my eyes don't tell my ears approach to anything Bloomy hockey.

Best thing going on down there hockey wise is the arena. Hard to believe that beautiful facility would ever sit dormant of hockey, for too long anyways. So IMO it's a pretty safe bet that hockey in one form of another will be there for the Bloomy hockey fan....... Keep throwing hockey leagues/teams/owners against the wall and sooner or later something will stick and the fans in Bloomy will get the hockey they deserve.

[efowl2]

I am also a Bloomy hockey fan, and I travel about 60 miles from Springfield (with a NAHL team with much more affotable prices), to Bloomy to support them and the main reason is the higher level of hockey. There were 3,000+ in the colisuem and the majority of the fans are very smart to whats going on in the game. If Bloomy would leave for a single A league, they would lose an in-state rival in QC and the chance to play St. Charles. The travel costs for Bloomy would be a lot higher, and the quality of play would be lower. I believe that fans wouldnt respond positively to a single A type situation in Bloomy. The attendence is up this year, and the new owner needs time to grow the team. But there does need to be much more marketing.

[Mr Ricochet]

efowl2, on 10 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I am also a Bloomy hockey fan, and I travel about 60 miles from Springfield (with a NAHL team with much more affotable prices), to Bloomy to support them and the main reason is the higher level of hockey.

Welcome, fowl. .......How long have you followed Bloomy hockey and how many NAHL Springfield games have you attended? What's that arena like in Springfield?