40 replies to this topic

[AAHL_fan01]

Do people think that there is a place for single a hockey in the midwest united states?

[kwey24]

There is a place, but not in the sub-NAHL budgets we've seen "Single-A" teams operate on in such leagues in the region previously. The Single-A hockey I'm talking about is with budgets of $600,000 to $750,000 (and quite possibly closer to the latter, I admit that). Economically and financially, I believe it will be the only answer for a number of markets that one would have to think are on their last legs of Double-A hockey and ones that have recently lost Double-A hockey.

Here's a list of some relevant markets.

The Core
Dayton: Despite the Gems' best efforts under new ownership, the team is again averaging less than 2,000 fans per game. Recall that I want to see attendance levels of 4,000 per game for Double-A teams (this 4,000 figure also builds in an allowance for exchanges of unused season tickets, season tickets included as part of advertising packages, and a reasonable number of giveaways). Also recall that I look for 3,000 per game for USHL teams (for similar reasons, although add in season tickets for billet families into that figure, too). I think it is proven beyond a doubt that Dayton is not capable of supporting Double-A hockey. I also think it would be foolhardy to place a USHL team in Dayton. Get on Dayton early, particularly if you can get the current Gems ownership in on any such new league, and I think you could out-position the NAHL. I would note that since Hara Arena is not the premier all-purpose arena in the Dayton metro area, it's not really in a position of strength when the terms of lease agreements are determined. I suspect it's not like Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines or the Sprint Center in Kansas City, where it's profitable even without a hockey tenant (Sprint Center is profitable with NO tenants!). Hara is also home to the Dayton Silverbacks, an indoor football team, but that still leaves a lot of the year open if they don’t have hockey. [MSA 2009 Estimate: 835,063 -- hard to believe this number cannot support Double-A hockey, but apparently not in Dayton.]

Flint: It's hard to know if Flint will ever support Tier II junior A hockey enough to allow it to make a go at Perani and, if so, whether that will be in time for the Michigan Warriors not to have to fold. Similar to Dayton, I do not believe that any new Double-A team or any USHL team could make a go of things in Flint. However, give Flint a pro hockey team where it could average around 2,000 fans per game (even a bit under), and you might be able to make a go of things. I don't care if the Kinneys are involved or not, I highly doubt Flint would ever return to the 4,000 per game necessary to play in a real Double-A league that didn't include welfare payments from the Fort Wayne Komets. In addition, I don't think the Perani Event Center is really in a position of strength to dictate terms for a lease agreement if the Warriors were to fold. While it is the primary all-purpose arena in Flint, Flint is not a Des Moines, Iowa, or Kansas City, Missouri, in terms of concerts making it a point to stop there and other events making stops there. To my knowledge, Flint does not have an indoor football team or some other major tenant aside from the Warriors. [MSA 2009 Estimate: 424,043 -- It should be noted that this only includes Genesee County and does not include Lapeer County, which I would think would actually factor in a bit.]

Port Huron: Similar to Flint, it’s hard to know if Port Huron will ever support Tier II junior A hockey enough to allow it to make a go at McMorran and, if so, whether that will be in time for the Fighting Falcons not to have to fold. Port Huron's status is clouded a bit by the potential of the Illitch family to build a new arena in Port Huron, but I feel it'd be foolhardy to try to put another Double-A team in Port Huron or an OHL team in Port Huron or a USHL team in Port Huron. The market is too small, particularly considering it’s proximity to the Sarnia Sting, and it's not like it's a small market with an unemployment rate below 5 percent and a booming economy. To me, if Port Huron were to get something to replace the Fighting Falcons, only a team in a hypothetical Single-A league has much chance, in my opinion. Of note, McMorran Place will be home to the Port Huron Predators indoor football team starting in late February. [Port Huron isn't technically a metropolitan or micropolitan statistical area, but the 2009 population estimate of St. Clair County was 167,562, and I suspect that's how Port Huron would be calculated if it were.]

Wheeling: I would say that, like Dayton, it's proven that Wheeling can no longer support Double-A hockey. Maybe a league could convince the current Nailers ownership to jump ship to a new Single-A league. One red flag I see with Wheeling is the price of tickets. Does anyone know if these prices are necessary because of fees the arena charges to the Nailers? Either way, I wouldn’t see WesBanco Arena being in a real strong bargaining position if it had no tenant or the real possibility of having no tenant. To my knowledge, WesBanco does not have an indoor football tenant and has not since the Wildcats folded. [MSA 2009 Estimate: 144,637—I’d say you could add some of the Washington, PA, micropolitan area to this and at least part of the Weirton-Steubenville micropolitan area to this, too.]

Potential
Johnstown: This former Double-A market comes into play if Wheeling is in any such Single-A league, as well as some other markets in the region that could potentially come into play to help keep travel reasonable. It’s always possible some junior hockey league beats Single-A hockey to the punch in Johnstown, but I would say that Johnstown is incapable of supporting a USHL team and I would hope the NAHL wouldn’t considering an island out in PA. The Cambria County War Memorial will have the Johnstown Generals indoor football as a tenant during the summer, but having a winter tenant (above the University of Pennsylvania-Johnstown’s club team) wouldn’t be a bad thing for the arena, so I’d hope a Single-A team of the caliber I’m discussing could get a decent lease agreement. [MSA 2009 Estimate: 143,998 – Johnstown’s MSA only includes Cambria County, but a truly accurate estimate would also include portions of Indiana, Somerset, and Westmoreland Counties.]

I'm going to stop at these ones for now, but I'll have some further posts involving other markets in the following categories, although I've included a brief comment on each:

Some Potential
Jamestown: MSA isn't accurate for Jamestown proper (too high), so it's a small market, and would require other markets in the area and for such a league to exist for a few years before Jamestown would join, and the folding of junior hockey there.

Danville: David S. Palmer Arena is of some interest, but the market may be too small and requires other regional markets in such a league, too.

Could Come Into Play
Youngstown: Would require Phantoms folding and Wheeling to be in play, but this team remains in the USHL only if the ownership is the next Bruce Liimitainen (Chicago Steel owner).
Muskegon: Would require Lumberjacks folding. Current Lumberjacks have a front office that is large by AHL standards. How long can the Mervises support USHL hockey in Muskegon with only a bit over 2,000 per game, particularly at current staffing levels?
Bloomington, Illinois: Only if Prairie Thunder folded and USHL didn't manage to nab it.
Quad Cities: Only if Mallards fold and USHL didn't manage to nab it.

Could Come Into Play/Complicating Factors
Huntington: Requires either a new venue or updates/repairs to Big Sandy, and there would be other suitors.
Lousville: Would require a new, appropriately sized arena, and this is a target of the USHL.
Lexington: Would require a new, appropriately sized area, and would also have other suitors.
Evansville: Only if IceMen fold and USHL didn't manage to nab it.

Might Be Dreaming
Joliet Area: Would require a new arena, but ECHL, CHL, USHL, and NAHL would also come calling.
Kenosha/Lake Couty Area: Would require a new arena, and there would obviously be other suitors.
Fishers/Carmel (Hamilton County, Indiana): Would require a new arena, and the Indiana Ice would certainly angle for any such new arena (as might other minor leagues, depending on the size of the venue), but Hamilton County, Indiana, has been one of the fastest-growing counties in the nation the past decade and could support its own team now, particularly at the level of Single-A we're talking about.
Akron/Canton/Massillon Area: Would require a new arena with ice capabilities strategically placed, and there would obviously be other suitors, but there is a large population base here.

Edited by kwey24, 18 January 2011 - 01:02 PM.

[Mr Ricochet]

Great analysis Kwey. I'm going to pin this for future reference and for newbies to read.

My opinion is any single A league would need to start on a solid foundation, first and foremost. We can talk about markets, the economy, buildings and any other thing, but until a solid group at the highest level of league management appears nothing will work IMO.

A solid commissioner and a small group of dedicated owners with a plan to start small (4 teams) and make that work. No band aid fixes, but a long range plan and sticking to it.

[kwey24]

As I said I would, here's a blurb on a couple more markets.

Some Potential
Jamestown: This market has been a draw to Single-A hockey for the previous decade due to the Jamestown Savings Bank Ice Arena, which is the area's all-purpose arena. It previously housed the Jamestown Titans of the NEHL in 2003-04 and the Jamestown Vikings of the MAHL in 2007-08. The lone season of the Titans and the abrupt end to the Vikings (and the ensuing vandalism from some of the players that followed) have jaded the market to "Single A hockey" some. The arena currently hosts the Jamestown Jets of the Greater Metro Junior A Hockey League, which receives fairly tepid support. The arena did host some pre-tournament action of the 2011 World Junior Championships, though, which was certainly a tip of the hat to the arena. Its website states it seats 2,100 for hockey, which makes it a great size for the level of Single-A hockey we're discussing here. The problem is that besides being somewhat jaded, it is also somewhat small. It's Metropolitan Statistical Area is listed as 133,503, but it is the Jamestown-Dunkirk-Fredonia MSA. Fredonia, just under 40 minutes to the north of Jamestown, has NCAA DIII hockey via SUNY-Fredonia, limiting a Single-A team's draw to the north. Also limiting this draw is the fact that Dunkirk and Fredonia are only about an hour away from Buffalo (so you have NHL hockey an hour away). In addition, an hour to the west of Jamestown is the Erie Otters of the OHL, limiting their westward presence. A Jamestown Single-A team would theoretically draw from the western part of Cattaraugus County (which isn't the heart of the population of that county) and from the Warren, Pennsylvania, micropolitan area to the south (40,638). In reality, the population radius that Jamestown really has to draw from is much closer to 120,000, and that's smaller than Wheeling and Johnstown, particularly when one considers that the MSA's for these markets underestimate the population radius for the team because of boundaries of their MSAs. The Weirton-Steubenville micropolitan area alone adds 120,000 for Wheeling, for example. Then, how many fans does Wheeling's ECHL team draw? How many fans did Johnstown's team draw toward the end (about a core of 1,700 fans). If you project that math to Jamestown, it's going to be hard for Jamestown to get 1,500 fans. In fact, you'd have a real argument that averaging much more than 1,000 fans per game could be difficult for Jamestown, and that sort of attendance wouldn't support the caliber of Single-A hockey we're talking. Lastly, Jamestown could not be an inaugural team. It'd have to be a team that joins in a subsequent season after said league establishes itself as stable (and has nearby markets like Wheeling and Johnstown)--the market has already dealt with two leagues that could be described as "fly by night" by the casual fan.

Danville: Similar to Jamestown, Danville has a venue that is an attractive size for Single-A hockey. The David S. Palmer Arena seats about 2,350 for hockey. The arena opened in 1980 and housed the Danville Dashers of the Continental Hockey League from 1981 to 1986, the Danville Wings of the North American Hockey League from 1994 to 2003, and the Danville Wings of the USHL for one season (2003-04), which became the Indiana Ice after that. It should be noted that the Wings were owned by the Mervis family, current owners of the USHL's Muskegon Lumberjacks. The Wings averaged under 1,000 fans per game toward the end of their NAHL tenure, and they also were under 1,000 for their lone USHL season. The market also hosted the Danville Pounders of the NEHL for 2006-07, and have also hosted lower level junior hockey since then. Currently, David S. Palmer Arena has no major tenants, be it pro sports teams or junior hockey teams. Could a Single-A hockey team in a reputable league average 1,000 fans per game in Danville? Quite possibly. Could it get 1,500? It's possible. 2,000? That'd be difficult. The Danville MSA is just barely over 80,000, which is not big at all. Champaign County to the west has some population, but it's also home to the University of Illinois, putting Danville right in the heart of Fighting Illini country, which wouldn't help make a hockey team a big draw to the casual fan in either Danville or Champaign-Urbana. There is some population to draw from in Indiana across the border, but the Danville market still ends up significantly smaller that the markets of Wheeling and Johnstown. It has a tad more to draw from than Jamestown, but Jamestown neither has a major college in it nor one next door. Of course, Danville would require some nearby markets, too, and none of the "Core Markets" are nearby and the ones under the "Could Come Into Play" section that are nearby aren't actually likely to fall toward Single-A hockey, even of the caliber I'm discussing. [2009 MSA Estimate: 80,067]

Some proponents of markets such as Jamestown or Danville, only looking at the MSAs as stated, might point out that the Elmira metropolitan area is only 88,331; but Elmira does also draw from at least part of the Corning micropolitan area (96,552), the Sayre, Pennsylvania, micropolitan area (61,131), and even part of the western part of the Binghamton metropolitan area (the western part of Tioga County). While I believe that Elmira is likely too small for Double-A hockey long term, it is, in reality, much larger than the markets of Jamestown or Danville.

Edited by kwey24, 17 January 2011 - 11:12 PM.

[Old Jacks]

Mr Ricochet, on 16 January 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

Great analysis Kwey. I'm going to pin this for future reference and for newbies to read.

My opinion is any single A league would need to start on a solid foundation, first and foremost. We can talk about markets, the economy, buildings and any other thing, but until a solid group at the highest level of league management appears nothing will work IMO.

A solid commissioner and a small group of dedicated owners with a plan to start small (4 teams) and make that work. No band aid fixes, but a long range plan and sticking to it.

I would agree except I think you need at least 8 teams in a league and all within bus range. Basically with AA contraction you'll be getting AA hocky on an A budget. I think that would work as long as the players don't mind eating ramen.

[TcFlint]

Old Jacks, on 06 April 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Mr Ricochet, on 16 January 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

Great analysis Kwey. I'm going to pin this for future reference and for newbies to read.

My opinion is any single A league would need to start on a solid foundation, first and foremost. We can talk about markets, the economy, buildings and any other thing, but until a solid group at the highest level of league management appears nothing will work IMO.

A solid commissioner and a small group of dedicated owners with a plan to start small (4 teams) and make that work. No band aid fixes, but a long range plan and sticking to it.

I would agree except I think you need at least 8 teams in a league and all within bus range. Basically with AA contraction you'll be getting AA hocky on an A budget. I think that would work as long as the players don't mind eating ramen.

Something similar to the SPHL (Southern Professional Hockey League's) model would be outstanding. However, I do not know if their are enough teams to start, with sold owners who could step in. The Federal Hockey League just seems to be another pro league, similar to the All American Hockey League that could be short lived.

[minor life]

Simply not enough adequate arenas in the mid west for an SPHL type league to make it.

[TcFlint]

minor life, on 09 April 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Simply not enough adequate arenas in the mid west for an SPHL type league to make it.

No assurances that any of them want this brand of hockey but Muskegon, Port Huron, Flint, and Dayton would be about the right sized arena's when compared to SPHL arena's wouldn't they?

[a komets fan]

minor life, on 09 April 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Simply not enough adequate arenas in the mid west for an SPHL type league to make it.

I couldn't disagree more. The problem that the midwest has that the SPHL doesn't have is that the midwest single-a league is competing with junior markets. Yeah, the SPHL region has a little bit of competition with the NAHL (and maybe some tier III markets), but they aren't competing with the USHL and NAHL.

[minor life]

Find me 6 to 8 arenas that are vacant, in the mid west, have reasonable travel and all have at least 4000 seats. It cant be done. The SPHL is successful because they are in non traditional markets with snowbirds that have moved to the area. They may not have the USHL or NAHL, but they have football, and the south is all about football.

[SteveMacD]

minor life, on 15 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Find me 6 to 8 arenas that are vacant, in the mid west, have reasonable travel and all have at least 4000 seats. It cant be done.

To be fair, the reason why is the NAHL or USHL. Those leagues have been doing badly in barns that were recently occupied by pro teams. To put it another way, Dayton's attendance was better than Youngstown, Flint, Muskegon, and Port Huron. Johnstown will probably be a disaster, too. Pro fans just aren't buying into it.

If USHL and NAHL weren't there, you could easily have a single-A league consisting of Flint, Muskegon, Port Huron, Dayton, Youngstown, and Johnstown.

Other cities with vacant barns (which wouldn't work, but since you asked...)
Columbus
Hoffman Estates
Kansas City (which would be hilarious)
St. Charles (until I hear otherwise)

Also, probably soon to join the fold:
Wheeling
Bloomington

Quote

They may not have the USHL or NAHL, but they have football, and the south is all about football.

But the football teams aren't taking over ice arenas.

The midwest has at least as many NFL teams as Dixie (and don't give me that market size BS...If Green Bay can have an NFL team, market size doesn't really matter). Also, the midwest has the Big Ten, which means not only football, but also basketball. And, let's not forget numerous successful college hockey programs.

[minor life]

Your right Football doesnt take over Ice arenas but they take over ever friday night until Championships are settled in HS and College in January. Half of your season in the south is competing against football. The Big Ten is great, but it is nothing like the absolute chaos that is the SEC, they have basketball too. My point is non traditional markets have a better chance of supporting this level of hockey because they dont have other hockey competition. I have said this over and over again, people in the north just have too many good spending options for their hockey entertainment dollars. People in the south will take what they can get to get their fix.

This is not a travel footprint that would work for Single A
"Columbus
Hoffman Estates
Kansas City (which would be hilarious)
St. Charles (until I hear otherwise)

Also, probably soon to join the fold:
Wheeling
Bloomington"

[Mr Ricochet]

SteveMacD, on 15 April 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

To be fair, the reason why is the NAHL or USHL. Those leagues have been doing badly in barns that were recently occupied by pro teams. To put it another way, Dayton's attendance was better than Youngstown, Flint, Muskegon, and Port Huron. Johnstown will probably be a disaster, too. Pro fans just aren't buying into it.

Agreed to a point, Steve....... What I think you are missing is it's cheaper to operate a junior franchise than it is a AA pro. And at the NAHL level, which I now call Tier 2-1/2 cuz of the saturation of the NAHL, it is tons cheaper than running AA pro.

So you need quite a few less fans to find a break even point. So as an owner my investment at the junior level is maybe a million less to lose the same amount as AA pro.

I'm one who is a believer in A pro in the Midwest having seen the AAHA/L first hand. Add what has been mentioned that with AA contracting logic would have it that A level today would be better than A pro 5 years ago, making for some solid hockey.

But I have to acknowledge the arena problem in the Midwest, on top of all the others with an upstart league. I think a model that can work is one in a 1,000 seat arena in areas where other hockey options are 50-75 miles away. If that model can't work at 9-10 bucks a ticket I as well find it hard to see A pro surviving in the Midwest.

[kwey24]

In regards to an SPHL in the Midwest, that is not possible. The SPHL model requires 3,000 fans per game (roughly). In the Midwest, that the USHL model (obviously a tiny bit difference in regards to specifics of how they reach the budgets they do, but the number of fans needed is roughly the same). In the Midwest, we're looking at the need of an SPHL lite that is played in small all-purpose arenas. Currently, most of those are occupied by NAHL teams whose futures are questionable, a USHL team whose future is questionable in my opinion, and a couple Double-A markets that are doomed.

A Midwest Single-A model cannot require more than 2,000 fans to break even, and a mark of 1,500 or 1,750 would be even better. The markets I'm talking about are Flint, Port Huron, Muskegon, Bloomington, Dayton, and possibly Danville to round out a six-team league. I will admit that Danville would struggle to reach 1,500 per game. I'm hopeful that Danville can average closer to 900 fans per game in 2012-13, which is basically what the NAHL and USHL teams averaged. Currently, the Dashers do not play in a league with a model requiring the numbers I'm discussing. Of course, the Dayton market's quesiton is not in question only because of the seemingly inevitable doom of the Gems, but the possibility of a USHL-sized arena in West Carrollton. Would that make Dayton more likely to go USHL? Hard to know.

The Mid-Atlantic would actually be the market most likely to have an SPHL-lite league first, what with Roanoke and Richmond open. Other markets in that area that would make sense in such a league are Johnstown, Wheeling, and Erie. If Huntington were to get a new arena or Big Sandy became available to hockey again, then such a league would probably be the only thing that makes sense for them. Charleston, West Virginia, would also be a market of interest if it ever got an appropriate venue. If Bruce Zoldan ever decided to stop running his charity in the USHL, Youngstown would make sense. In a lot of these markets, you'd actually have hope of getting 2,000 fans per game, and if you operated on a model requiring 1,500 or 1,750, all the better.
For now, a model requiring only 1,000 fans per game may be what is required to help Single-A hockey survive and make the jump in the Midwest. If it proved viable, perhaps you'd have two strata of Single-A hockey in the Midwest, an SPHL-lite league and another one that could operate out of arenas that seat at least 1,000 fans.

Right now, though, all we have is the Danville Dashers. They need some more teams nearby, for sure. Being that it's already mid-April, the odds of them getting another team close by don't look too good. Hopefully Soskin can field the loses until more options open up so Single-A hockey can move in.
I don't think that Single-A hockey has no chance in the Midwest, but the right markets are going to have to open up. I wouldn't be surprised if they did, eventually, but the dominos would have to fall at the right time, too.

[minor life]

Just an FYI, strong rumor of FHL in Dayton. STRONG. If they are coming back pro it would be FHL. The FHL has also added a "development league" so a junior addition is possible as well. Crazy stuff going on these last few weeks.

[Drake8]

What if the strong FHL teams and the mentioned midwest cities came together to form a new and improved FHL, or you could call it the NPHL. It would be similar to the CoHL and the UHL but it would be a SINGLE A league and wouldn't compete with AA league like it used to. The available markets right now would create a nice league and if you could add just a couple more of my "possibles" list I think you could have a really nice league some what comparable to the SPHL. This league along with the SPHL would be the feeder leagues for the ECHL and if it's still around the CHL.

Danbury
1000 islands
Lewiston
Johnstown
New jersey

Flint
Bloomington
Dayton
Danville
Port Huron

POSSIBLES

Wheeling (if new ECHL owners don't work)
Muskegon (requires dropping USHL team)
Youngstown (requires dropping USHL team)
Erie (OHL team had thought about leaving)
Richmond (also could be SPHL)
Roanoke (also could be SPHL)
Hoffman estates (although arena is better then most in the league fan support would be perfect)
St Charles (given a CHL, ECHL or USHL team is not placed there)

And just an SPHL note here Allen RGV Laredo and Texas all look like possibilities for them but I see Allen holding out for the ECHL. Now the other 3 are possible if the league wanted a Texas division and if the NAHL didn't take them which is very possible. Lastly I REALLY hope bossier Shreveport gets a team next year they would fit great in the league and they deserve hockey after last year.

[minor life]

First of all the NPHL has no teams and no money, they were exposed in Johnstown. The FHL travel footprint as it stands may kill the league. Danville must get at least three more mid west partners to be viable. Flint, Bloomington and Port Huron are not available. This leaves Dayton and possibly Fraser, maybe a team in Ohio someplace. Lewiston has already said no to the FHL, they have EJHL and EMJHL now, while going after the USHL. The old addage that you can sell seats you dont have rings true with 1000 seat arenas and A level pro. Minimum 2000 seat arenas could make a go if they could average 1500 a night. With transportation and equipment costs rising every year, I dont see how it can work in todays economy.

[kwey24]

In regards to a few markets, in my opinion:

Roanoke and Richmond: Would be a mistake for the SPHL to expand here (or return to Richmond). The travel is just too intense. It makes more sense for these markets to join a Mid-Atlantic league, and there aren't enough viable markets for the SPHL to operate a division of the SPHL in the Mid-Atlantic. You lose some markets on that move from 2,000 fans per game to 3,000 fans per game.

Hoffman Estates: Just too big for Single-A considerations. That's definitely an arena for Double-A hockey or higher. Unfortunately, the Express just proved that Double-A hockey is almost certainly a no-go at the Sears Centre. The Express did not fail due to deficiencies of that organization. The area just proved unable to support a Double-A team.

St. Charles: The rumors over the years have been the St. Charles would see a return of Double-A hockey or the USHL. If you had an SPHL-lite league with Bloomington and other Midwest cities, maybe St. Charles... With an arena the size of Family Arena, there's definitely a certain number of fans you have to average to make a go of things there. It'd definitely be above the 2,000 figure I toss around for most Single-A teams playing in smaller all-purpose arenas or older all-purpose arenas (and sometimes being both). I can say I would be pleased to see the Central Hockey League add a team in St. Charles, what with Quad Cities, the Missouri Mavericks, Tulas, and Wichita not too far away, by minor league hockey standards. Obviously, Bloomington is close, too, as is Evansville--but those later two are potentially in flux.

Bossier City-Shreveport: All I can say is I would be very happy if the SPHL added Bossier-Shreveport to its roster of teams/markets. I know there was some hope that that would happen for the 2011-12 season, but it didn't/couldn't happen. Unless things have been afoot in Bossier-Shreveport for a while and a group is going to announce any day, 2012-13 is out. Maybe someday, though.

[kwey24]

Minor Life: What's the story out of 1000 Islands these days? Last I heard was they were going to have to relocate because Bonnie Castle was no longer interested in operating an ice arena (looked at closing it toward the end of the FHL season, but the Privateers managed to prevent that.

As for the FHL travel footprint killing the league, probably not if it lost Danville. That said, they certainly don't want to lose Danville, and so the league faces the task of filling in things in the Midwest. I'd be happy if Dayton joined the Dashers in an FHL Midwest Division. The Midwest Division would need to fill out quickly, though. I do believe it's only a matter of time for Bloomington, but will it happen in time for an FHL Midwest Division and the Dashers? It'd also prove helpful if the Queen City Storm got their arena and could at least fill in. (Haven't anything about that in a while). Fraser, Michigan would be a tough go. If a certain person in Michigan that already has established working relations with the GLSC were behind it, I'd endorse it (for what that's worth). Hard to know if even such a hypotehtical person could get 2,000 coming into the GLSC on a routine basis, though.

As a note for anyone reading, I don't think Troy could support a Single-A team while Dayton also has one (particularly at Hara Arena) at the level of 2,000 fans per game. Now, whether it could support what's needed under the current FHL model with the right ownership... Would enough of a rivarly exist between Troy and Dayton for their fans to travel from one place to the other when they play?

[Cyclonesdiehard]

Troy and Trotwood where Hara Arena is located are only 22 miles apart. I think having teams in both arenas would actually hurt the league not enhance it.

The Queen City Storm still have a facebook page, but hardly ever update it. If the proposed Cincinnati Mills Ice Arena is a go it would be a good place for the FHL. It is rumored to have 2500+ seats.