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Mr Ricochet

You know this is the best thing about so many, and more and more each yr, taking the NCAA path to the NHL. That it explodes the myth that the CHL is the best way to the NHL. As a result 14-15-16 yr old kids in 10 yrs will see the NCAA path as legitimate as the CHL path to the NHL. That one path is not better or more assured to make the NHL.

 

Kids who lean to schooling by nature and have a legitimate shot at the NHL will understand the NCAA path is every bit as safe and legitimate as the Major Junior path. ........... Plus a kid can give the USHL a try and go CHL if he doesn't like it. But if he goes CHL first and then USHL he has blown his NCAA eligibility.

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crb6

You know this is the best thing about so many, and more and more each yr, taking the NCAA path to the NHL. That it explodes the myth that the CHL is the best way to the NHL. As a result 14-15-16 yr old kids in 10 yrs will see the NCAA path as legitimate as the CHL path to the NHL. That one path is not better or more assured to make the NHL.

 

Kids who lean to schooling by nature and have a legitimate shot at the NHL will understand the NCAA path is every bit as safe and legitimate as the Major Junior path. ........... Plus a kid can give the USHL a try and go CHL if he doesn't like it. But if he goes CHL first and then USHL he has blown his NCAA eligibility.

Exactly!

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minor life

An education will last forever. Hockey will not.

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Mr Ricochet

An education will last forever. Hockey will not.

 

Can be a very difficult, if not impossible, for some 15/16 yr olds to understand. Add the very alluring variable of playing his favorite sport into the equation it makes it tougher. ..............One bad rut in the ice or one too many concussions, things out of his control, can change a player's ability to play the sport professionally. That too his hard to understand at that age.

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Maiden

You know this is the best thing about so many, and more and more each yr, taking the NCAA path to the NHL. That it explodes the myth that the CHL is the best way to the NHL. As a result 14-15-16 yr old kids in 10 yrs will see the NCAA path as legitimate as the CHL path to the NHL. That one path is not better or more assured to make the NHL.

 

Kids who lean to schooling by nature and have a legitimate shot at the NHL will understand the NCAA path is every bit as safe and legitimate as the Major Junior path. ........... Plus a kid can give the USHL a try and go CHL if he doesn't like it. But if he goes CHL first and then USHL he has blown his NCAA eligibility.

Lots of kids are not cut out for college. Hence why some choose the major junior route.

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minor life

More and more players who are eligible for NCAA understand the education side of life. That said, its those kids that are giving more leverage to players who are borderline eligible, or not eligible when negotiating their major junior deals. Not uncommon now for an MJ team to guarantee 4 years of schooling for a player drafted in the 4th or 5th round. Just a few years ago, that was unheard of.

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Mr Ricochet

More and more players who are eligible for NCAA understand the education side of life. That said, its those kids that are giving more leverage to players who are borderline eligible, or not eligible when negotiating their major junior deals. Not uncommon now for an MJ team to guarantee 4 years of schooling for a player drafted in the 4th or 5th round. Just a few years ago, that was unheard of.

 

This is something maybe crb was speaking to I missed. The leverage of being drafted in the USHL that a kid has when negotiating with a CHL team. Two more yrs of schooling? ...... But unless they changed some rules last I knew a kid had 2 yrs once out of jr eligibility to start his education package with CHL money or he losses it. So give the ECHL, AHL or Europe a try but do so more than 2 yrs you lose your education package? I have that correct?

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minor life

The player still has 18 months to claim his money. The difference now is that later round picks and even free agents have been able to negotiate better education package guarantee's. This has been particularly advantageous for Canadian born kids.

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Maiden

Each team only has so many education packages on there roster at any one time.

In addition every first round pick automatically receives the top of the line package.

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crb6

 

You know this is the best thing about so many, and more and more each yr, taking the NCAA path to the NHL. That it explodes the myth that the CHL is the best way to the NHL. As a result 14-15-16 yr old kids in 10 yrs will see the NCAA path as legitimate as the CHL path to the NHL. That one path is not better or more assured to make the NHL.

 

Kids who lean to schooling by nature and have a legitimate shot at the NHL will understand the NCAA path is every bit as safe and legitimate as the Major Junior path. ........... Plus a kid can give the USHL a try and go CHL if he doesn't like it. But if he goes CHL first and then USHL he has blown his NCAA eligibility.

Lots of kids are not cut out for college. Hence why some choose the major junior route.

 

Exactly...even when some age out of Jr.at 20 the still don't have any interest in University

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crb6

More and more players who are eligible for NCAA understand the education side of life. That said, its those kids that are giving more leverage to players who are borderline eligible, or not eligible when negotiating their major junior deals. Not uncommon now for an MJ team to guarantee 4 years of schooling for a player drafted in the 4th or 5th round. Just a few years ago, that was unheard of.

 

The CHL contracts don't in any way guarantee 4 years of schooling, so if a MJ team pitches a 4 year school guarantee it is up to the agent/parent to point out that the contract DOES NOT guarantee 4 years of paid education.

 

A few years ago MJ teams wrote Cadillac Contracts for certain players which included things like paid visits for mum and dad, sister and girlfriend, as well as health "stipends" among other things.

 

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding about what a MJ contract actually says.

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crb6

WHL

 

 

ARTICLE 3 — WHL SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM — GRADUATE PLAYER

3.1 (a) (i) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs 3.1(d) and 3.2, the Player shall be eligible for the WHL

Scholarship Program pursuant to which the WHL will provide scholarships in respect of the Player's

educational costs to enroll in and attend a post-secondary educational institution as a full time

student following completion of the Player's WHL playing term. The WHL Scholarship Program

covers:

(A) one half of an academic year if the Player is on the Club's roster on October 11 or at any

time thereafter up to and including January 10 of any Hockey Season; and

( B) one half of an academic year if the Player is on the Club's roster on January 11 of any

Hockey Season; provided however, the Player's WHL Scholarship will be limited to a maximum of one academic year for each Hockey Season or portion thereof played in the WHL to a maximum of five (5)

academic years, regardless of the number of Hockey Seasons or portions thereof that the Player

has played in the WHL.

(ii) The Player's WHL Scholarship covers the costs and expenses of tuition fees, compulsory student

fees and textbooks directly related to the Player's course of study, including any applicable sales

taxes and goods and services taxes to attend, as a full time student, the publicly funded post secondary

educational institution designated by the Player (in accordance with the WHL Standard

Player Agreement) in a province of Canada or a state of the United States of America where the

Player normally and regularly resides (the "designated post-secondary educational institution"). In

the event the Player enrolls in and attends a post-secondary educational institution other than the

designated publicly funded post-secondary educational institution, the Player's WHL Scholarship

under this paragraph 3.1 shall, subject to paragraph 3.2, be limited to an amount which does not

exceed expenses of a similar program of study at the publicly funded post-secondary educational

institution designated by the Player.

( B) Amounts payable by the WHL for tuition fees and compulsory student fees shall be limited to the amount published in the official school handbook, calendar or other relevant publication of the designated postsecondary educational institution for the academic year in which the Player is enrolled and attends a post-secondary educational institution, subject to the provisions of paragraph 3.2. Upon receipt by the WHL of evidence of the Player's enrollment in a post-secondary educational institution together with an invoice from that institution for tuition and compulsory student fees, the WHL will, subject to the provisions of paragraphs 3.1(a), 3.1( B) and 3.2, pay such tuition and compulsory student fees directly to the postsecondary educational institution. The Player hereby agrees that any refunds or reimbursements applicable to tuition or compulsory student fees which were paid by the WHL resulting from the Player's withdrawal from the post-secondary educational institution or from classes, failure of the student to maintain an acceptable passing grade in the course of his studies, or any other reason, will be made by the post-secondary educational institution directly to the WHL, and if made by the post-secondary educational institution to the Player, will be paid by the Player to the WHL within ten (10) days of the Player's receipt of same from the post-secondary educational institution, failing which the Player shall pay interest thereon at 10% per annum compounded monthly, and the Player's eligibility for the WHL

Scholarship Program shall be suspended until the funds are paid in full.

© Subject to the provisions of paragraph 3.2, the WHL will reimburse the Player for school textbook

expenses directly related to the Player's course of study, together with any applicable sales taxes and

goods and services taxes, within thirty (30) days of the Player providing appropriate evidence of

expenditures or receipts to the WHL. The maximum reimbursement for the expenses of school textbooks will be based on the estimate for the Player's program of study as outlined in the official school handbook, calendar or other relevant publication of the designated post-secondary educational institution for the academic year in which the Player is enrolled and attends a post-secondary educational institution, subject to the provisions of paragraph 3.2; if such an estimate is not available in the official school handbook, calendar or other relevant publication of the designated post-secondary educational institution then the maximum reimbursement of such expenses will be based on information obtained by the WHL from the designated post-secondary educational institution.

(d) The Player will be permitted to play an unlimited number of hockey games in certain hockey leagues

which the WHL has, in its sole discretion acting reasonably, designated as a professional development

hockey league without affecting the Player's eligibility to participate in the WHL Scholarship Program

pursuant to this paragraph 3.1. The WHL will identify the hockey leagues which will be designated as

professional development hockey leagues for the purpose of this Agreement. The Player shall not,

however, be eligible for the benefits contained in this paragraph 3.1 if:

(i) the Player has executed a professional hockey playing contract with a team in the National Hockey

League, a team in the American Hockey League (but excluding an American Hockey League tryout

contract or tryout contracts under which the Player plays an aggregate of twenty-five (25) or fewer

games in the American Hockey League) or a professional hockey team in Europe; or

(ii) the Player fails by September 15, after one full academic year or Hockey Season following

completion of his eligibility to play in the WHL as a twenty (20) year old, to enroll in and attend a post-secondary education institution as a full-time student; or

(iii) the Player fails by September 15 after two full academic years or Hockey Seasons following

completion of his eligibility to play in the WHL as a nineteen (19) year old, to enroll in and attend a post-secondary education institution as a full-time student; or

(iv) the Player fails at any time to enroll in, attend and maintain the status of a full time student during the

fall and winter academic semesters at a post-secondary educational institution in consecutive

academic years following the academic year the Player first uses the benefits of the WHL Scholarship

Program provided however, the WHL may, upon the written request of the Player, permit the Player

to extend the benefit period under paragraph 3.1 (1)(i) by permitting the Player to attend a post-secondary

institution on a part time basis or in non-consecutive academic years. The WHL shall not,

however, be liable to the Player for any increase in educational costs due to such extension

notwithstanding the consent of the WHL to extend the benefit period under paragraph 3.1 (a)(i).

(e) If the Player, while on the Club's active roster, suffers a serious injury that ends his ability to play

competitive amateur or professional hockey while participating either in:

(i) any hockey game under paragraph 4.1; or

(ii) in any sanctioned event or activity, then notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 3.1(a)(i), 3.1(d)(ii), 3.1(d)(iii) and 3.1(d)(iv), the Player

shall be entitled to a full WHL scholarship for a maximum of four (4) academic years (unless the Player has qualified for five (5) years WHL Scholarships in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 3.1(a)(i) in accordance with and subject to the provisions of paragraphs 3.1(a), 3.1( B), 3.1© and 3.2 to enroll in and attend a post-secondary educational institution, whether as a part time or full time student.

3.2 It is acknowledged that, for the purposes of paragraph 3.1, there are certain post-secondary educational institution programs of study that are outside of the mainstream of general study with the result that such programs have higher academic costs and expenses associated with them. If the Player enrolls in such a program, the obligation of the WHL under paragraph 3.1 to cover the Player's reasonable expenses associated with such a program shall be limited to an amount which reflects, as a benchmark, the reasonable expenses of a Player attending a mainstream general program of study (mainstream general program of study to be defined as an undergraduate arts, science or general studies program), at a publicly funded post-secondary educational institution designated by the Player in accordance with the WHL

Standard Player Agreement in the province or state where the Player normally and regularly resides. It is also understood that compulsory student fees may vary depending on the post-secondary educational

institution at which the Player may enroll. For the purpose of this agreement, the obligation of the WHL under paragraph 3.1, to cover all compulsory student fees, excludes premiums for health services, which

may include medical and dental insurance fees.

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minor life

You have your perspective I have mine. I am specifically talking OHL in my experience recently. Yes, 4 years guaranteed or the player does not report or sign. Not all CHL contracts are the same. WHL contract is different from OHL and Q. You have your experience and sources, I have mine. In the CHL there is no one size fits all agreement. Anyone who says there is, is probably on the CHL payroll.

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crb6

The player still has 18 months to claim his money. The difference now is that later round picks and even free agents have been able to negotiate better education package guarantee's. This has been particularly advantageous for Canadian born kids.

Can you tell me in which league this is going on, because I'm sure the league commissioners and the owners would like to know about it.

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crb6

You have your perspective I have mine. I am specifically talking OHL in my experience recently. Yes, 4 years guaranteed or the player does not report or sign. Not all CHL contracts are the same. WHL contract is different from OHL and Q. You have your experience and sources, I have mine. In the CHL there is no one size fits all agreement. Anyone who says there is, is probably on the CHL payroll.

Actually the contracts between CHL leagues are pretty darn similar. I have had very recent experience also with the O and the Q. It isn't a matter of "perspective" it is a matter of the very important contract language which requires care to study and review.

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crb6

You have your perspective I have mine. I am specifically talking OHL in my experience recently. Yes, 4 years guaranteed or the player does not report or sign. Not all CHL contracts are the same. WHL contract is different from OHL and Q. You have your experience and sources, I have mine. In the CHL there is no one size fits all agreement. Anyone who says there is, is probably on the CHL payroll.

 

I sure hope you aren't implying I'm on a CHL payroll. You might take notice of the fact that I feel the education contracts in the CHL stink, and contain so many outs for the club it is ridiculous. If you personally have negotiated CHL Cadillac Contracts outside of the standard, you might want to keep it quite because it sure wouldn't make the team happy to end up with big fines and suspensions like some have.

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minor life

You have your perspective I have mine. :D

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Mr Ricochet

 

You have your perspective I have mine. I am specifically talking OHL in my experience recently. Yes, 4 years guaranteed or the player does not report or sign. Not all CHL contracts are the same. WHL contract is different from OHL and Q. You have your experience and sources, I have mine. In the CHL there is no one size fits all agreement. Anyone who says there is, is probably on the CHL payroll.

 

I sure hope you aren't implying I'm on a CHL payroll. You might take notice of the fact that I feel the education contracts in the CHL stink, and contain so many outs for the club it is ridiculous. If you personally have negotiated CHL Cadillac Contracts outside of the standard, you might want to keep it quite because it sure wouldn't make the team happy to end up with big fines and suspensions like some have.

 

 

 

At the risk of being redundant I'm a labor guy through and through. Believe an employee that earns a good wage/benefits and has purchasing power drives demand, which drives supply, which creates jobs, which drives the economy and profits. Neither the employee or the company needs subsidized which keeps taxes low. Demand side economics.

 

But the company has to stay solvent while paying a fair wage or else the thing (economy) falls apart.

 

With the CHL of course you throw in child labor laws and a socialist model where you need an opponent to be solvent/profitable so you have a team to host in your building to sell tickets to make a profit to stay solvent it's a variation of the above paragraph but the same principles apply.

 

I realize the above is crude and basic but the idea is how can CHL teams stay solvent/profitable while "paying" a fair wage/benefits to it's employees (players) who keep the economic engine (league) running by drawing the paying customer?

 

What would the USHL be like if they had to pay for the players' college tuition? The league IS subsidized in that NCAA schools pay the tuition for the USHL developing players who will sell tickets at the NCAA level.

 

The CHL IS subsidized by the NHL for sending developed players who will sell tickets at the NHL level. The USHL is subsidized by NHL money too through USA Hockey but at much smaller numbers.

 

So what's a fair ENOUGH shake for CHL players while keeping CHL teams solvent? To know that CHL franchises would have to open their books, correct? I'm an employee and want a fair wage but don't want to break the companies back. If what I'm asking/negotiating for is fair in my mind but the company says it isn't seeing their books is the only way to know. Correct?

 

Is this where they in the current CHL "negotiations"? If the CHL wants to cry poor mouth they need to open their books?

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crb6

 

 

You have your perspective I have mine. I am specifically talking OHL in my experience recently. Yes, 4 years guaranteed or the player does not report or sign. Not all CHL contracts are the same. WHL contract is different from OHL and Q. You have your experience and sources, I have mine. In the CHL there is no one size fits all agreement. Anyone who says there is, is probably on the CHL payroll.

 

I sure hope you aren't implying I'm on a CHL payroll. You might take notice of the fact that I feel the education contracts in the CHL stink, and contain so many outs for the club it is ridiculous. If you personally have negotiated CHL Cadillac Contracts outside of the standard, you might want to keep it quite because it sure wouldn't make the team happy to end up with big fines and suspensions like some have.

 

 

 

At the risk of being redundant I'm a labor guy through and through. Believe an employee that earns a good wage/benefits and has purchasing power drives demand, which drives supply, which creates jobs, which drives the economy and profits. Neither the employee or the company needs subsidized which keeps taxes low. Demand side economics.

 

But the company has to stay solvent while paying a fair wage or else the thing (economy) falls apart.

 

With the CHL of course you throw in child labor laws and a socialist model where you need an opponent to be solvent/profitable so you have a team to host in your building to sell tickets to make a profit to stay solvent it's a variation of the above paragraph but the same principles apply.

 

I realize the above is crude and basic but the idea is how can CHL teams stay solvent/profitable while "paying" a fair wage/benefits to it's employees (players) who keep the economic engine (league) running by drawing the paying customer?

 

What would the USHL be like if they had to pay for the players' college tuition? The league IS subsidized in that NCAA schools pay the tuition for the USHL developing players who will sell tickets at the NCAA level.

 

The CHL IS subsidized by the NHL for sending developed players who will sell tickets at the NHL level. The USHL is subsidized by NHL money too through USA Hockey but at much smaller numbers.

 

So what's a fair ENOUGH shake for CHL players while keeping CHL teams solvent? To know that CHL franchises would have to open their books, correct? I'm an employee and want a fair wage but don't want to break the companies back. If what I'm asking/negotiating for is fair in my mind but the company says it isn't seeing their books is the only way to know. Correct?

 

Is this where they in the current CHL "negotiations"? If the CHL wants to cry poor mouth they need to open their books?

 

The keeping teams solvent and a fair shake for the players is supposedly the crux of the matter, and the answer is probably somewhere in between. As far as the litigation is concerned I have no idea where it stands or even whether they are negotiating. As far as opening books it appears the owners are taking the same position as US President Trump. :)

 

The people I talk to are primarily at the GM/Coach level who only care that number one, they have a job... and number two that players are treated properly for obvious reasons.

 

Some litigation has exposed the education package baloney, and good agents spend time with the kid emphasizing what is at risk, including career ending injuries, some don't and just want the client signed for the future pie piece.

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crb6

You have your perspective I have mine. :D

 

Obviously! I'm going to have to find out who is guaranteeing those four year education rides in the OHL and QMJHL, might come in handy some day. Were they PS contracts with the owner or directly with the team?

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minor life

 

You have your perspective I have mine. :D

 

Obviously! I'm going to have to find out who is guaranteeing those four year education rides in the OHL and QMJHL, might come in handy some day. Were they PS contracts with the owner or directly with the team?

 

I prefer to keep the details of my perspective to myself on this matter. :D

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crb6

 

 

You have your perspective I have mine. :D

 

Obviously! I'm going to have to find out who is guaranteeing those four year education rides in the OHL and QMJHL, might come in handy some day. Were they PS contracts with the owner or directly with the team?

 

I prefer to keep the details of my perspective to myself on this matter. :D

 

I completely understand! :laugh:

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Mr Ricochet

crb, no news here but negotiations between labor and management is always sticky then add child labor to that equation and it's at least doubly so. And as you mention you look for something that splits the difference and you have both the company and labor getting a fair shake. ........... But as of now there is no negotiations, management says here's the deal and take it or leave it kid.

 

But management can kill its own self by gouging. If they gave a fair shake to the players in the form of a respectable education package along with developing the player there would be no lawsuits. You wanna keep a union or the law away give a fair deal and you won't have the problems that comes along with that.

 

The last company I worked for before this one had some sites union some not. I worked at a non-union one and we organized and became union. But one non-union site made more money and had more sick days!! You think that non-union site wants a union and to pay dues? No, and that's cuz that site pays and treats it's employees well, hence no union.

 

I've been a union official and negotiated a contentious contract and one not so much and paid union dues for 20+ yrs and I'm here to say a union is just a necessary evil. I believe whole heartedly in a union only because 95% of the time it's the only way for an labor to get a fair shake, hence drive the economy creating a middle class, and as little as I've seen of the CHL they are bringing heat on themselves. That means a union or litigation and it could have been avoided.

 

Add the USHL/JuniorA/NCAA path is gaining traction and the courts just may strike down The Indentured Servitude Clause CHL players are forced to play under and the future might mean big changes for the CHL. ......... I agree with all who say not every kid is fit for the NCAA path and love options, especially for kids and athletes, so I want to see the CHL strong but it wouldn't surprise me a bit that there will be a whole new CHL model 10 yrs from now.

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