Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
kwey24

Elmira to get FHL Team?

Recommended Posts

kwey24    0
kwey24

I'll bet some of you know this; but, for those who don't and might care, things with Brian Barrett have fallen apart in Elmira and former Jackals GM Robbie Nichols already owns an FHL franchise and is merely looking to close a deal with the IDA on putting a team in First Arena and possibly even purchasing the arena (which the IDA is trying to do).

 

Recent Story

http://www.mytwintiers.com/sports/local-sports/pioneers-co-owner-robbie-nichols-talks-fhl-hockey-in-elmira/757951126

 

Older Story

http://www.mytwintiers.com/news/local-news/a-deal-may-be-in-the-works-to-bring-back-hockey-to-first-arena/754097808

 

This would be huge for the FHL and a big win. Hopefully everyone knows that ECHL hockey is no longer viable in Elmira (despite strong efforts) and I'm heartened that Elmira is not going to end up with an NAHL team that I believe would be in a doomed division. Johnstown is in a doomed division. I hope that this Elmira deal goes through and that someday somewhat soon, Johnstown becomes an FHL market (which it always should have been). Johnstown does a great job supporting its NAHL team. The problem is there aren't enough other viable markets in the area. The FHL only has a certain number of viable markets, too; but the FHL has the advantage it that it already possesses many of the viable markets. Secondarily, the NCDC is going to win the battle for Tier II hockey in the Northeast.

 

If the FHL can continue to gain ground and be a league with teams playing only in legitimate arenas and in legitimate markets, this has the potential to create arena growth in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic. No longer would you have the pressure to build an 8,000 seat arena; but, instead, you can build an arena for your community for specific to hockey, indoor football, and such, that seats 3,000 or 4,000. A lot of markets open up as possibilities if all they really need is an arena that seats 3,000 to 4,000, and maybe even as low as 2,500 or even what Jamestown, New York, has. Watertown plays with what it has; but, if you were building a new arena, you wouldn't build it that small for an FHL team. For most markets, 3,000 would work just fine and be more than enough on most nights. Just duplicate what Waterloo or Dubuque have in the USHL and you're probably good to go. How many markets are out there with arenas far larger than they need, too, that serve as cautionary tales?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Johnstown    0
Johnstown

Having seen some FHL games on the internet, I THANK GOD that the War Memorial Arena in Johnstown chose the NAHL over FHL a few years ago. Fans want to watch legitimate prospects, not players who will never amount to anything other than a potential call up to the SPHL. The NAHL offers fast paced, hard hitting hockey which is popular with fans in Johnstown.

 

As for your opinion that the NAHL is doomed in the east... we shall see. I heard an interview with the NAHL commissioner during its recent draft,and he stated that as many as four new markets could be added to the division in 2018. The FHL's reputation consists of a revolving door of franchises and unpaid bills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

The NAHL has their wish list. Maybe they can add more teams that average 200 or 300 fans per game... Johnstown's situation is great and I like NAHL hockey, too; but, Tier II hockey under the NAHL model is not viable in the Northeast or even the Mid-Atlantic. Then, there are those of us who are only used to considering Tier II non-tuition hockey and we consider Tier II in Canada that involves pay-to-play to essentially be Tier III hockey. It's still solid hockey and the pay-to-play is financially necessary; but, it's Tier III in structure (nobody wants to admit that; but, nobody wants to admit that the classic Tier II structure isn't really viable anymore in Canada and the viability in the United States is very questionable, too). The NAHL will probable be able to remain true Tier II longer than almost every Tier II league in Canada; but, it may have a day of reckoning, too, like the OJHL did (and it's really no worse for wear).

 

Also, let's not kid ourselves about where most NAHL players end up. Their number of NCAA DI recruits has gotten a tiny bit better and we've seen more NHL draft picks in recent years; but, most are still NCAA DIII or ACHA. Few NAHLers ever end up full-time USHLers. The NAHL is not a revolving door for NCAA DI prospects like the USHL is (even when we exclude the USNTDP). There are also a lot of fans for whom the "prospect" aspect doesn't really matter that much. I know it does for some; but, it doesn't apply to everyone and the number it doesn't apply to is sizeable enough to matter. My local PDL soccer team only occasionally produces a depth MSL player, yet it averages over 2,000 fans per game. The fans know what they're watching but they still love and support it anyway.

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable. I mean, the SPHL has had a fair amount of instability that last few years, too. We've seen Augusta, Lafayette, Biloxi, and Columbus go dark the last few season; gained and lost Bloomington; gained Peoria (which is great); gained Roanoke, and gained Evansville, but the latter looks a bit shaky. Macon won the championship; but, it's going to need to average more fans to remain viable. The RiverKings could really use a boost in attendance and the bottom dropped out on Fayetteville (now the Marksmen). I don't say this to bash the SPHL; but, just to provide context that if a couple dominoes fall right for the Federal League, it's going to be no less stable than any other minor league, the USHL, or the NAHL. Even the ECHL sees turnover.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
minor life    2
minor life

The FHL is highly unlikely in Elmira. Robbie found out what the rent was going to be and said thanks but no thanks. That arena is probably the worst run facility in hockey history. The city keeps screwing things up. What they should do is give the building to someone who is going to bring the ECHL back. There are reasons no one in the arena business is stepping up to purchase the building and its not based on the sale price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Major Life    0
Major Life

The FHL is highly unlikely in Elmira. Robbie found out what the rent was going to be and said thanks but no thanks. That arena is probably the worst run facility in hockey history. The city keeps screwing things up. What they should do is give the building to someone who is going to bring the ECHL back. There are reasons no one in the arena business is stepping up to purchase the building and its not based on the sale price.

Ever since the Arfs sued Nichols he has had a hard time coming up with the financing to get a deal on the place. Gotta feel sorry for the guy.

Edited by Major Life

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
minor life    2
minor life

Robbie is doing more than ok with his minor league baseball team. I doubt he wants to buy or manage the arena. My understanding is he only wanted to place a team in the building and be a tenant. The building though, being run by local government, wants way too much for rent, and has over estimated the value of anyone's desire to be there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Major Life    0
Major Life

Robbie is doing more than ok with his minor league baseball team. I doubt he wants to buy or manage the arena. My understanding is he only wanted to place a team in the building and be a tenant. The building though, being run by local government, wants way too much for rent, and has over estimated the value of anyone's desire to be there.

 

The BB team makes a living for Don, Nellie, and Robbie, but not a pot full. He was reaching out to some old hockey folks but no takers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

Unfortunately, Minor Life's comments about the FHL being unlikely in Elmira have weight.

 

http://www.mytwintiers.com/sports/local-sports/robbie-nichols-update-on-fhl-coming-to-elmira/758740586

 

The IDA may eventually capitulate on their demands; but, it will most likely mean no hockey in Elmira (well, other than Elmira College) for 2017-18.

 

Definitely, if the rent is too high at First Arena, things will break down for either an FHL team or NAHL team. I'm on record as to why I think the NAHL won't work in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic (despite Johnstown being a strong pillar), an FHL team is pretty dependent on reasonable arena rents, and I just don't think Elmira can support the expense of an ECHL team (nor a USHL team). Perhaps it will take a season or two of First Arena being empty and the city taking that financial hit before they relent. When they do, I hope it is an FHL team that moves in.

 

But, maybe they'll relent sooner rather than later. Only the FHL could accommodate such a quick entry out of the other leagues potentially at play. I don't blame Nichols for walking away if the figures are ridiculous. There's a reason this arena has been in financial trouble again and again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MikeA    0
MikeA

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

 

I had already heard this was happening, and I know others knew, too (I think it might have even been posted elsewhere here on FYC that the Fighting Saints would have multiple home rinks in Ontario), and I don't consider it a long-term solution, which is more what I had in mind when I typed my post. Had the Traverse City NA3HL team announced they were going dark for a season sooner, perhaps locating Traverse City for a year would have been an option. I suspect it would have gone better than how things will go in Ontario and, obviously, the FHL and the Fighting Saints came to the conclusion that Battle Creek was not going to be a viable option. Owning an FHL team that plays out of The Rink wouldn't be as limiting as having one that played out of Berlin or North Adams; but, it'd be problematic. Watertown's previous ownership publicly stated they needed to average 1,000 fans per game to break even. Well, if your arena doesn't seat 1,000 fans...

 

While the IDHL as a league is on hold, if it does ever come to fruition, it really ought to consider two divisions and placing teams in locations that could average a few hundred fans a game so that tuition need not be so high. Locations like Battle Creek, Alpena, and Dyer come to mind in the Midwest and Berlin, North Adams, and Rome come to mind in the Northeast. I'm sure you could find one more location for each division and there are others that come to mind; but, those are the ones that immediately come to mind with real potential. What I really don't want to see the IDHL be is a really expensive senior elite league (I hesitate to not say men's league because most men's leagues don't allow checking). The PDHL (anyone else here remember that) ended up what I'm hoping the IDHL (if it truly comes to fruition) does not--which isn't to slam the PDHL. I just think the FHL has enough former markets to work with that could average a few hundred fans that they would be able to lower tuition to levels closer to $2,000 or $3,000 per season, which would attract far more players than paying $7,000 to $8,000 to play all games in the same rink like you would for men's league.

 

Anyway, thinking back to long-term solutions, that'd look more like Troy, Ohio, at Hobart Arena. That said, I could see Hobart Arena being too expensive of an option for the Fighting Saints' ownership. We'll see what happens.

 

As for extrapolating the state of the Fighting Saints/Knights onto the league as a whole, I'm not inclined to do so. Every other team is in a legitimate market in a legitimate arena for 2017-18.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
minor life    2
minor life

Kwey with all due respect the IDHL is a bad idea with even worse execution. Men paying to play hockey? We have leagues like that called ACHA and the Great Lakes league. Someone suggesting that these young men should pay to play hockey in order to move up to the FHL is like saying 18 year old house midget players should be drafted into the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Ricochet    2
Mr Ricochet

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

 

 

Mike A sign up date 2007!!! Welcome back. Refresh my memory if you will, Fury fan? If so you get a look at the consensus top 2-3 pick in the NHL next year Svechnikov, a Muskegon Lumberjack? ............ Care to share which city/franchise gets your hockey dollar these days?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

Kwey with all due respect the IDHL is a bad idea with even worse execution. Men paying to play hockey? We have leagues like that called ACHA and the Great Lakes league. Someone suggesting that these young men should pay to play hockey in order to move up to the FHL is like saying 18 year old house midget players should be drafted into the NHL.

Perfect world, the players in the IDHL wouldn't have to pay to play. But, I don't see that happening anytime soon. In reality, it'd probably be hard to operate it ever without players paying in some, because then you'd almost be operating at the NAHL level, and those teams can't get buy with only a few hundred fans per game.

 

The purpose of the IDHL is/was not only to move players up to the FHL. If it were only to feed guys to the FHL...that would be hard to support. They were also looking to have players utilize it to get better college hockey opportunities. Would anyone be using it to get an NCAA DI scholarship? No. But, it might have meant a better NCAA DIII or ACHA opportunity. For some players, you might have been able to play in the IDHL while going to college at a school without hockey. For some Euros and Asians, it might be an opportunity to get your TOEFL up while still playing in North America (yes, the GMHL exists; but, if you had an IDHL that cost less to play in...).

 

At $7,000 to $8,000 per year, were many players going to do it? No (as we learned). If they can actually put teams in places that have had Single-A hockey and have proven they can average a few hundred fans per game, you could lower the tuition a lot and then it's worth looking at for the right players. The league/divisions could not get very spread out; but, that'd be doable. Of course, what I'm describing is not the direction the IDHL was going. I can think of a number of different scenarios for players where a league like the IDHL (as I envision it) could make sense (especially your 21-year-old year). At $8,000, especially if it was going to basically be a reincarnation of the PDHL, that's a hard sell. But, at a lower amount and with actual teams with actual fans, etc....

 

Yes, the GMHL let's you play as a 21-year-old; but...I can think of reasons why players would choose a legit IDHL (along the lines of what I envision) over the GMHL.

 

For now, we don't have to worry about it. The IDHL's resources are focused on the Watertown Wolves, which is good. The IDHL wasn't going to be able to happen this year anyway (well short of the needed number of players).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Major Life    0
Major Life

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

 

 

The FHL has at least lasted a little longer than some short lived minor pro leagues! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

 

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

 

 

The FHL has at least lasted a little longer than some short lived minor pro leagues! :)

 

Such as the Sunshine Hockey League, Gulf Coast Hockey League, WHA2, South East Hockey League, Atlantic Coast Hockey League, International Independent Hockey League, North East Hockey League, Mid-Atlantic Hockey League, Eastern Professional Hockey League, All-American Hockey League, and the list goes on. This is to say nothing of a handful of stillborn leagues that never actually played.

 

The FHL has not been a perfect league and it still has a ways; but, the list above is why I focus on the positives of the FHL and what it can be and, in many ways, is on the verge of being. The Thunderbirds have had a lead-up like any other reputable SPHL or ECHL team and Danville, Danbury, Port Huron, and Watertown have legit followings and Cornwall has real potential. We're at the point where an FHL team needs to be averaging 1,000 fans per game to break even. That's actually a positive gauge of where the FHL is at (and, no, it isn't all because of travel)..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MikeA    0
MikeA

 

 

Where the Federal League was a few years ago, I can see the nod toward the NAHL. But, the level of play in the Federal League has improved dramatically since Johnstown made its decision. It'll continue to improve if the Federal League can add markets like Elmira and like how it has already added Winston-Salem. If the Fed can add Elmira (and drop the Fighting Saints or find a new solution for them), the Federal League is going to become reasonably stable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new "solution" has already been found for the Fighting Saints. They are moving to Kingsville, Ontario and will be known as the North Shore Knights. In typical FHL fashion they also will be playing "home games" in Gravenhurst, South River and Temiscaming so essentially you have a nomad hockey club playing home games in four locations. Further proof this league will never be "reasonably stable" and is a joke. See the first Tweet on the Kingsville Kings page for proof, even though the FHL has not announced anything. Also, the FHL schedule is out on their website and it confirms the four different home arenas for this traveling hockey show. As someone who loves minor pro hockey and misses the old Colonial and United Leagues, even with a team close by in St. Clair Shores I didn't bother going because I knew it would be one and done and what an amateur circus this league is. I'm sure the North Shore Nights will be a HUGE success. :lolz:

 

https://twitter.com/KingsvilleKings

 

 

Mike A sign up date 2007!!! Welcome back. Refresh my memory if you will, Fury fan? If so you get a look at the consensus top 2-3 pick in the NHL next year Svechnikov, a Muskegon Lumberjack? ............ Care to share which city/franchise gets your hockey dollar these days?

 

 

Ha, actually I'm in Metro Detroit. So started as a fan of the Detroit Falcons of the old Colonial League, followed them to Port Huron as the Border Cats, supported the Beacons then we got a team back in metro Detroit for two years with the Motor City Mechanics.

 

When they folded I started going to Plymouth Whalers games... and now of course they have moved to Flint.

 

So I am a hockey orphan. I really miss minor pro hockey, the Colonial/United League in general, but even with that was not prepared to support SCS in the FHL because that was not a pro rink they were playing in and I knew it would be a one and done as so many teams in the FHL end up being. Now if they had played out of Fraser as was also considered, I would have at least checked out a few games in the old Falcons/Mechanics barn even though I am sure it would have been dead empty in there.

 

So my former hockey dollars go to Detroit Pistons basketball games :lolz: I highly doubt I'll see another minor pro hockey team close enough to where I live to make it worth supporting again in my lifetime sadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Ricochet    2
Mr Ricochet

Mike, with all AA pro gone but the ECHL doesn't it stand to reason players that would have been on IHL2, Colonial League/United League rosters trickle down to SPHL or FHL rosters? In other words A pro ain't too far from AA pro of 10 yrs ago. And the FHL rules allow for a lot of the old school hockey the United League played. ........I saw the AAHA live 7-8 yrs ago, precurser to the FHL, and enjoyed it and it should be a better product today.

 

You're near Plymouth and you don't like watching the NTDP? Don't wanna see Matthews, Eichel, Larkin, Saad and Trouba types play the USHL teams? Or watch the Summer Showcase in Plymouth with the WJC rosters of Canada, USA, Finland and Sveeeeeden doing battle? Or the NCAA in Ann Arbor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Major Life    0
Major Life

Mike, with all AA pro gone but the ECHL doesn't it stand to reason players that would have been on IHL2, Colonial League/United League rosters trickle down to SPHL or FHL rosters? In other words A pro ain't too far from AA pro of 10 yrs ago. And the FHL rules allow for a lot of the old school hockey the United League played. ........I saw the AAHA live 7-8 yrs ago, precurser to the FHL, and enjoyed it and it should be a better product today.

 

You're near Plymouth and you don't like watching the NTDP? Don't wanna see Matthews, Eichel, Larkin, Saad and Trouba types play the USHL teams? Or watch the Summer Showcase in Plymouth with the WJC rosters of Canada, USA, Finland and Sveeeeeden doing battle? Or the NCAA in Ann Arbor?

 

Wow! The AAHA was a complete joke of a league made up of a bunch of wannabe players most of whom never played much higher than high school or junior B. I don't know how you can consider the AAHA a precursor to the FHL the only real comparison is the FHL started out with the great Billy Tibbits as a marquee player, while the AAHA had their share of the same type of people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Ricochet    2
Mr Ricochet

 

Mike, with all AA pro gone but the ECHL doesn't it stand to reason players that would have been on IHL2, Colonial League/United League rosters trickle down to SPHL or FHL rosters? In other words A pro ain't too far from AA pro of 10 yrs ago. And the FHL rules allow for a lot of the old school hockey the United League played. ........I saw the AAHA live 7-8 yrs ago, precurser to the FHL, and enjoyed it and it should be a better product today.

 

You're near Plymouth and you don't like watching the NTDP? Don't wanna see Matthews, Eichel, Larkin, Saad and Trouba types play the USHL teams? Or watch the Summer Showcase in Plymouth with the WJC rosters of Canada, USA, Finland and Sveeeeeden doing battle? Or the NCAA in Ann Arbor?

 

Wow! The AAHA was a complete joke of a league made up of a bunch of wannabe players most of whom never played much higher than high school or junior B. I don't know how you can consider the AAHA a precursor to the FHL the only real comparison is the FHL started out with the great Billy Tibbits as a marquee player, while the AAHA had their share of the same type of people.

 

 

 

Well Mr Proxy I guess I'm just not as sophisticated a hockey mind as you. But you probably run into that problem with 99% of the people lucky enough to meet you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwey24    0
kwey24

Major Life: Ricochet wasn't referring to the AAHL/AAHA when he said AA pro. He would referring to "Double A" hockey, which for the longest time was the ECHL, the Central Hockey League, and the Colonial/United/International Hockey League (and, no, not to be confused with the real IHL that had the Las Vegas Thunder, etc.). Over time, it became obvious the the ECHL was the best of those three, the Central League second, and the CoHL/UHL/IHL third; but, most everybody still referred to them as "AA."

 

Today it's easy. There is one "AA" league (ECHL) and I think everybody would agree that the SPHL is "High A" equivalent and the FHL "A." (I hesitate to call the FHL "Low A" because of all the other leagues we've referred to as "Low A" in the past that were nowhere near what the FHL has become.)

 

Also, knowing what the rosters of some of these other Low A leagues were comprised of back in the day is one reason I celebrate what the FHL rosters have become (most of them). Danville's roster was solid. Berlin's roster became really solid at the end after they shored up their defense. Danbury and Port Huron had pretty solid rosters. Cornwall's talent wasn't too bad, they just didn't get to practice very often... Watertown's roster was decent. St. Clair Shores...it was tough to keep track... Carolina's going to have a solid roster, like Danville and Berlin had (heck, they're going to have a lot of Berlin...). What Danville did last year was great. They had less roster turnover than many SPHL teams, and they lost two goalies because Phaneuf and Passingham both moved up to the SPHL. The caliber of players Danville was cutting last year was pretty decent--guys that would have been impact in some of these Low-A leagues of yore.

 

For MikeA: I understand your thoughts on St. Clair Shores and the arena last year. I'm fully on board with Watertown becoming the minimum requirements for the FHL. What a great day that would/will be. The arenas at Danville, Port Huron, Danbury, Cornwall, and Winston-Salem, you'll feel like you're at a pro game. And with the upgrades Watertown made, you're beyond that recreation ice hockey arena feel. That's on par with a lot of NAHL arenas I've been to around the upper Midwest. I'm pumped by the pro hockey in arenas that seat 500 is becoming as preposterous as it always should have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
minor life    2
minor life

Yes, the AAHL was terrible. It was so terrible that it was the catalyst that brought Evansville Indiana a pretty nice arena. It was so terrible that Bloomington became a hockey market and has the USHL today. It certainly is to blame for the Rink in Battle Creek for remaining open when city officials were looking to close its doors.

 

Lets not forget blaming the league for giving players an opportunity. Or forget to blame the league for having more "call ups" in year one than the SPHL had in its first five years combined. Lets not forget how many OHL, D-1, D-3 and CIS players wound down their careers in the league too. Or the players who are still playing in the FHL or Europe. A terrible league to be sure.

 

The FHL has done a great job at surviving. They should get a lot of credit. Barry Soskin in particular should get a lot of credit for taking such financial risk. Its players deserve credit too. They have gone through the ups and downs and are being rewarded for it as the league improves.

 

Moving back to topic though; the FHL in Elmira would be short lived as long as the local municipality is involved in the arena in any way. Local government has screwed things up almost as much as the Afr's did. This is a city who's police department made completely unfounded claims against the guy who was going to buy the arena and bring back an ECHL team right before the sale was going to close. Maybe a year with nothing will make some people more appreciative of what they had and will help bring change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Storminator16    0
Storminator16

... Johnstown's situation is great and I like NAHL hockey, too; but, Tier II hockey under the NAHL model is not viable in the Northeast or even the Mid-Atlantic.

 

I found this a bit interesting. Sounds like it's more so that you would like the NCDC to succeed so maybe that's jading your thoughts on the NAHL. I'm going to be the persistent question guy because I feel like I'm constantly educating myself on the world of junior hockey. Why do you think the NAHL can't work in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic (Maryland? I can see it working there)? What do you think is wrong with the NAHL model? What do you consider the NAHL model? I'm just curious what folks thoughts are on this.

 

Myself, I like the USPHL but I see a huge, eventual problem that could come from the NCDC venture. By the nature of hockey itself, it's a gate driven and sponsorship driven business. For USA Hockey, a tier 2 league provides tuition-free play by providing venues that sustain some gate revenue plus the league has enough sponsor revenue (I really would like to know how much...) to outweigh the heavy operating expense of hockey. (I'm not going to get into the "camps" thing, no one is holding a gun to these kids heads to chase dreams every summer). It's very obvious the USPHL don't have the venues to even discuss gate revenue and can't pull in the sponsorship revenue that the NAHL can. So, to pay for their free league, tess talented teams have to subsidize more talented teams...that just seems like something that won't be sustainable. Especially those guys in the South, they've been running together for awhile now so all it takes 2 or 3 of them to say "I'm out". Then back to USA Hockey they go sans the ladder model (i.e., they can stop fielding 2 teams). The NA3HL may be an attractive option or even forming the SEJHL again. I can't be the only who sees this. The USPHL umbrella gives them some exposure but eventually those guys can figure something out if they put their heads (and money) together.

 

I like the USPHL. I like the NAHL. I just want to see kids, coaches, and operators succeed. I just see problems on the horizon for the USPHL. I know as a country we get this wrong, but business models shouldn't be dependent on the "poor" subsidizing the "rich".

Edited by Storminator16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
crb6    0
crb6

 

... Johnstown's situation is great and I like NAHL hockey, too; but, Tier II hockey under the NAHL model is not viable in the Northeast or even the Mid-Atlantic.

 

I found this a bit interesting. Sounds like it's more so that you would like the NCDC to succeed so maybe that's jading your thoughts on the NAHL. I'm going to be the persistent question guy because I feel like I'm constantly educating myself on the world of junior hockey. Why do you think the NAHL can't work in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic (Maryland? I can see it working there)? What do you think is wrong with the NAHL model? What do you consider the NAHL model? I'm just curious what folks thoughts are on this.

 

Myself, I like the USPHL but I see a huge, eventual problem that could come from the NCDC venture. By the nature of hockey itself, it's a gate driven and sponsorship driven business. For USA Hockey, a tier 2 league provides tuition-free play by providing venues that sustain some gate revenue plus the league has enough sponsor revenue (I really would like to know how much...) to outweigh the heavy operating expense of hockey. (I'm not going to get into the "camps" thing, no one is holding a gun to these kids heads to chase dreams every summer). It's very obvious the USPHL don't have the venues to even discuss gate revenue and can't pull in the sponsorship revenue that the NAHL can. So, to pay for their free league, tess talented teams have to subsidize more talented teams...that just seems like something that won't be sustainable. Especially those guys in the South, they've been running together for awhile now so all it takes 2 or 3 of them to say "I'm out". Then back to USA Hockey they go sans the ladder model (i.e., they can stop fielding 2 teams). The NA3HL may be an attractive option or even forming the SEJHL again. I can't be the only who sees this. The USPHL umbrella gives them some exposure but eventually those guys can figure something out if they put their heads (and money) together.

 

I like the USPHL. I like the NAHL. I just want to see kids, coaches, and operators succeed. I just see problems on the horizon for the USPHL. I know as a country we get this wrong, but business models shouldn't be dependent on the "poor" subsidizing the "rich".

 

After reading this article I have some serious questions about the NCDC. Wasn't Frank Scarpaci involved in some legal problems sometime back including something to do with a school run by the Florida Eels. Something like Edison School if IIRC?

 

http://www.usphl.com/news_article/show/802795?referrer_id=2914506

 

I found this:

 

http://www.juniorhockey.com/news/news_detail.php?news_id=73336

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1257353

Edited by crb6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
crb6    0
crb6

This was the original indictment back in 1992. There are just too many people with extensive fraud backgrounds involved in hockey these days each league should do background checks on individuals who are going to be involved with young men seeking a dream. The same is true for the unregulated Adviser business.

 

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1992/Feds-Indict-15-in-$20-Million-Mortgage-Fraud-Scheme/id-c9f2851f8dee0869e829ca3b24593273

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Storminator16    0
Storminator16

Yikes, that article you posted from the USPHL site was just an update of an old article he wrote. Can't remember if he called out the NAHL and NA3HL like that previously but I can see where he replaced "Premier" with "NCDC". Safe to have opinions, but...

 

I believe the original article was on the Eels site when they announced a partnership with the Islanders HC (maybe a couple of years ago?) Now I have to go find it in the internet cache because without proof, I'm a butthole.

Edited by Storminator16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×