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Dear Youth Hockey: 5 Things You Need to Change


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#21 whalersfan

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:15 PM

Bevalaqua, you are correct, you can have an adviser that is certified and works with pro players.  Under one condition.  That condition is that you pay the adviser his "reasonable and customary" rate.  That was established nearly six years ago.  "Reasonable and customary" was originally an insurance industry term.  It is now also the term used to describe the "average rate for services rendered".
 
This means, if the agent/adviser makes 20K on a 4 year contract, he has a 5K per year average.  Meaning the amateur player wishing to use that persons services has to pay 5K per year in order to stay compliant.  
 
I just went through this with two commits.  One New Hampshire and one UMass.  In both cases we had to submit complete documentation for proof of payment.  Proof of every school, or junior program we contacted over the course of working with each player.  Phone logs, email logs, and notes pertaining to that work.  Sometimes you have to go through this investigation randomly, sometimes there is a reason.  
 
If you don't know what you're doing, and aren't meticulous in record keeping, players are at risk.  Anyone can be an "Agent" you don't need a currently contracted NHL player to be certified.  You pay the $1500 a year, sign prospects that are eligible for the draft, or AHL/ECHL guys and you get certified.  There is no test or anything like that.  NHL players have to use a certified agent because the CBA says so.  Guess who gets the $1500 annual fee?  When we get a pro guy now, we pass him along to a certified agent and split the commission.  
 
Remember, for all the published rules in existence, there are "NCAA memorandum" that are not published which more clearly define things.  The only way to get those memorandum is to either work in the school system, or attend NCAA compliance meetings.  I have not once seen another adviser or agent at a compliance meeting that I attend every year.


Great information thank you!

There sure is a lot of info on this via the NCAA.
http://www.ncaa.org/...-and-amateurism

There is even a Federal Code that covers it…wow!
https://www.law.corn.../15/chapter-104

#22 whalersfan

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:30 PM



This might help it is the most recent one regarding hockey.

https://www.ncaa.org...mo_20170321.pdf

#23 minor life

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:58 PM

Whalersfan, unfortunately the federal statutes have no teeth.  It is not a law that is associated with licensure.  It is a guideline that was adopted as part of the proposed Uniform Athlete Agent Act. The UAAA was proposed years ago and has only been adopted by a few states.  

 

Your memos relate to current NCAA athletes predominantly and not so much for the incoming student.  Good resources though if you are looking at the NHL.


There is a difference between someone who plays hockey, and a Hockey Player. which one are you?

#24 whalersfan

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 02:57 PM

Whalersfan, unfortunately the federal statutes have no teeth.  It is not a law that is associated with licensure.  It is a guideline that was adopted as part of the proposed Uniform Athlete Agent Act. The UAAA was proposed years ago and has only been adopted by a few states.  
 
Your memos relate to current NCAA athletes predominantly and not so much for the incoming student.  Good resources though if you are looking at the NHL.


SPARTA is a Federal Backstop for UAAA, like a lot Federal Codes are, for State Code/Statutes that aren’t enforced by State AGs, it offers an alternative for complaints via the FTC.
It IS associated with licensure and for good reason. The 43 States that enacted a UAAA to protect student athletes all have licensing requirements for agents.
Maybe this will help.

https://www.legislat...me=mcl-750-411e

https://msu.edu/~msu...ration Form.pdf

#25 minor life

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:11 PM

Only licensure is regulated by the states.  Most states have not enacted the UAAA, and only "large market" states have had protections on the books for years.  For argument sake I will agree with you on the agency information, because many states do have a watered down version of UAAA.

 

The MSU application however is not required for advisers.  They have no venue in which to enforce having an adviser fill out the form.  This was actually discussed in Lansing at a workshop I attended.  What I was just told, is that these forms are required for the Agents who are on campus and participating in panel discussions.  

An agent works for future earnings.  An adviser is paid in advance for work similar in description to agency work.  However, the adviser gets no additional compensation upon the player attending school.  There are no bonus clauses, commission clauses, or other clauses relating to future work or professional opportunities.

 

This is the problem.  There is absolutely no regulation of advisers, and very little for agents.  The other problem with UAAA and other laws is that they really are just guidelines.  Licensure by definition would require a test be taken to exhibit competency.  Now, that simply wouldn't solve the problem because I know plenty of bad attorneys who pass the bar and practice.  It would however, be a hoop for someone to jump through in order to work, and those hoops usually slow people from entering the field.


There is a difference between someone who plays hockey, and a Hockey Player. which one are you?

#26 whalersfan

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:19 PM

Only licensure is regulated by the states.  Most states have not enacted the UAAA, and only "large market" states have had protections on the books for years.  For argument sake I will agree with you on the agency information, because many states do have a watered down version of UAAA.
 
The MSU application however is not required for advisers.  They have no venue in which to enforce having an adviser fill out the form.  This was actually discussed in Lansing at a workshop I attended.  What I was just told, is that these forms are required for the Agents who are on campus and participating in panel discussions.  
An agent works for future earnings.  An adviser is paid in advance for work similar in description to agency work.  However, the adviser gets no additional compensation upon the player attending school.  There are no bonus clauses, commission clauses, or other clauses relating to future work or professional opportunities.
 
This is the problem.  There is absolutely no regulation of advisers, and very little for agents.  The other problem with UAAA and other laws is that they really are just guidelines.  Licensure by definition would require a test be taken to exhibit competency.  Now, that simply wouldn't solve the problem because I know plenty of bad attorneys who pass the bar and practice.  It would however, be a hoop for someone to jump through in order to work, and those hoops usually slow people from entering the field.


Are you a lawyer? If so where did you get your JD?

#27 minor life

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:44 PM

LOL and we have another one.  New member wants to know where I went to school and check my credentials .  Perhaps a copy of my credit report?  Or should we just go right for my social security number?  Two in one month?  Is that possible?  I don't think so.  Why not just call me, the number is on the website.


There is a difference between someone who plays hockey, and a Hockey Player. which one are you?

#28 TheShow

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:59 PM

Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!



#29 whalersfan

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:08 PM

LOL and we have another one.  New member wants to know where I went to school and check my credentials .  Perhaps a copy of my credit report?  Or should we just go right for my social security number?  Two in one month?  Is that possible?  I don't think so.  Why not just call me, the number is on the website.


My apologizes, not looking for info just wondered if we might have something in common.

Edited by whalersfan, 10 May 2017 - 06:09 PM.


#30 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:25 PM

Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!

 

Can count on you to keep a thread solid.   Thanks for the addition..............


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#31 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:45 PM

Good articles and good conversation. As a parent with a 03 I can relate to a lot of this and what I have seen parents do in the last 7 years of youth hockey. I told my son many years ago that I wouldn't "sell the farm" for him to go play AAA like some of his old teammates have. This fall Tristan will be playing High school hockey for the Dubuque Devils in the Midwest Highschool Hockey League. I hope he has fun and they have a good team. Maybe he'll get seen at a state tournament or an away game where a scout might have a night off and check out a local midwest hockey game...maybe not, lol. I just hope when he's older he looks back and has a lot of great memories, and had fun!

We are a billet family for the Saints so I know what a lot of these kids families have to do to get them to the USHL. Kids leaving home at 14, being billeted away from home. Playing on every spring/summer showcase they can get in, camps...my God the money these families spend. If they tucked their 15-20 grand a year away from the time junior is 12-13 years old they'd have plenty of money to send him off to college when he was of age. 

 

Damn time goes by so fast.   Remember when your boy was just starting out in hockey. 

 

This is the kind of thread FYC had in mind when it was just an idea.   Folks who know helping along those looking to learn in a sport that is financially crippling for 90% of parents.  Thanks so much to all who've taken the time to post, and well done ML.   Even my pickled multiple times concussed noodle is following what you're trying to explain. 

 

I have nothing to add but this concerning your boy, TP.   You don't have to play for the Mission, Little Ceasers or Culver Academy to be the best skater there is.  And if you are the best skater there is you will get noticed.  Not saying playing Iowa HS hockey and being the best skater will get you a scholly to Michigan but when you are the best skater in any game you are noticed even by a novice fan.

 

Skate, skate, skate, skate and then skate some more.   The rest will follow.   Something I learned from parents of players is that the kids from the west coast are often better puck handlers!!   I said how the hell can that be and was told with ice being so scarce those kids play roller hockey and that puck never stays flat so they learn that skill early.

 

So for 8 bucks a kid can play rat hockey (for nothing on a pond) and skate drills and for nothing can work his/her puck skills in the driveway along with playing HS or youth hockey.   You can develop the rudimentary skills in this sport cheaply if need be and who knows from there. 

 

If you feel your boy has some game when he's 16 or 17 he can pay to play in a combine and if he has something he'll be seen.  But it all starts with the skating and you do that relatively cheaply. 


Crush Em Steel
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RIP Huckleberry. 1995-2009.... Thanks for 14 unforgettable years Huck. You will forever be loved and missed.

#32 TheShow

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:13 AM


Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!

 
Can count on you to keep a thread solid.   Thanks for the addition..............

It's the usual formula. Crap article is posted, ML posts actual facts, trolls come out of the woodwork to flame him, even though this stuff is...his job. Rinse, repeat. I've given up posting worthwhile content here because it's the same stuff that gets tossed at ML over and over.

We condoning the personal stuff now?

Man things have changed here.

Edited by TheShow, 11 May 2017 - 05:20 AM.


#33 tpriest

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 11:26 AM

 

Good articles and good conversation. As a parent with a 03 I can relate to a lot of this and what I have seen parents do in the last 7 years of youth hockey. I told my son many years ago that I wouldn't "sell the farm" for him to go play AAA like some of his old teammates have. This fall Tristan will be playing High school hockey for the Dubuque Devils in the Midwest Highschool Hockey League. I hope he has fun and they have a good team. Maybe he'll get seen at a state tournament or an away game where a scout might have a night off and check out a local midwest hockey game...maybe not, lol. I just hope when he's older he looks back and has a lot of great memories, and had fun!

We are a billet family for the Saints so I know what a lot of these kids families have to do to get them to the USHL. Kids leaving home at 14, being billeted away from home. Playing on every spring/summer showcase they can get in, camps...my God the money these families spend. If they tucked their 15-20 grand a year away from the time junior is 12-13 years old they'd have plenty of money to send him off to college when he was of age. 

 

Damn time goes by so fast.   Remember when your boy was just starting out in hockey. 

 

This is the kind of thread FYC had in mind when it was just an idea.   Folks who know helping along those looking to learn in a sport that is financially crippling for 90% of parents.  Thanks so much to all who've taken the time to post, and well done ML.   Even my pickled multiple times concussed noodle is following what you're trying to explain. 

 

I have nothing to add but this concerning your boy, TP.   You don't have to play for the Mission, Little Ceasers or Culver Academy to be the best skater there is.  And if you are the best skater there is you will get noticed.  Not saying playing Iowa HS hockey and being the best skater will get you a scholly to Michigan but when you are the best skater in any game you are noticed even by a novice fan.

 

Skate, skate, skate, skate and then skate some more.   The rest will follow.   Something I learned from parents of players is that the kids from the west coast are often better puck handlers!!   I said how the hell can that be and was told with ice being so scarce those kids play roller hockey and that puck never stays flat so they learn that skill early.

 

So for 8 bucks a kid can play rat hockey (for nothing on a pond) and skate drills and for nothing can work his/her puck skills in the driveway along with playing HS or youth hockey.   You can develop the rudimentary skills in this sport cheaply if need be and who knows from there. 

 

If you feel your boy has some game when he's 16 or 17 he can pay to play in a combine and if he has something he'll be seen.  But it all starts with the skating and you do that relatively cheaply. 

 

Man alive, the time goes quick! Junior needs all new pads and skates already, his season ended the end of February. He wore a 6.5 Bauer last season and is now wearing a 9 shoe, so probably a 8 Bauer...and I doubt this will be his final skate size. 
It's kind of funny to see these futures spring camps for 03's showing up. Seems like 03's were Mites not long ago. 



#34 whalersfan

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 12:04 PM

Good articles and good conversation. As a parent with a 03 I can relate to a lot of this and what I have seen parents do in the last 7 years of youth hockey. I told my son many years ago that I wouldn't "sell the farm" for him to go play AAA like some of his old teammates have. This fall Tristan will be playing High school hockey for the Dubuque Devils in the Midwest Highschool Hockey League. I hope he has fun and they have a good team. Maybe he'll get seen at a state tournament or an away game where a scout might have a night off and check out a local midwest hockey game...maybe not, lol. I just hope when he's older he looks back and has a lot of great memories, and had fun!
We are a billet family for the Saints so I know what a lot of these kids families have to do to get them to the USHL. Kids leaving home at 14, being billeted away from home. Playing on every spring/summer showcase they can get in, camps...my God the money these families spend. If they tucked their 15-20 grand a year away from the time junior is 12-13 years old they'd have plenty of money to send him off to college when he was of age.



IMO, players, and parents alike shouldn’t rely on what are purported to be “facts” on an internet site, they should check with the NCAA Eligibility Center, formally the NCAA Clearing House before the Advisor/Agent issue was litigated, and or the Compliance Officer at any D-I school. They are always helpful to perspective student athletes.
http://www.ncaa.org/...gibility-center
Other sources include the Secretary of State in States requiring licensure under UAAA.

All State Colleges and Universities are subject to FOIA, but I have never been asked to submit one. Private Colleges and Universities are not generally subject to FOIA unless they are receiving Federal Grants, but I’ve never had a problem getting the info I sought from them.
IMO, care has to be taken regarding Advisors/Agents and people should seek out information on their own. I know from experience that a player/parent has to be extremely cautious about contacts and interaction with CHL teams by them or the Advisor, as they are considered professionals.

12.3.3 Athletics Scholarship Agent. Any individual, agency or organization that represents a prospective student-athlete for compensation in placing the prospective student-athlete in a collegiate institution as a recipient of institutional financial aid shall be considered an agent or organization marketing the individual’s athletics ability or reputation.

12.3.3.1 Talent Evaluation Services and Agents. A prospective student-athlete may allow a scouting service or agent to distribute personal information (e.g., high school academic and athletics records, physical statistics) to member institutions without jeopardizing his or her eligibility, provided the fee paid to such an agent is not based on placing the prospective student-athlete in a collegiate institution as a recipient of institutional financial aid.

https://www.nhes.nh....ts/athagent.pdf

http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://unhwildcats.c...2014010151.aspx

http://unhwildcats.c...2014010151.aspx

http://www.dartmouth...TCLID=210548790

https://admin.xosn.c...df9/4432812.pdf

#35 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:28 PM

 

 

Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!

 
Can count on you to keep a thread solid.   Thanks for the addition..............

It's the usual formula. Crap article is posted, ML posts actual facts, trolls come out of the woodwork to flame him, even though this stuff is...his job. Rinse, repeat. I've given up posting worthwhile content here because it's the same stuff that gets tossed at ML over and over.

We condoning the personal stuff now?

Man things have changed here.

 

 

You have high standards, that we all know from your posts.   Sorry FYC no longer does and drop by once in awhile to see if we've turned things around and are worth your time.  

 

See ya round, dude...........


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RIP Huckleberry. 1995-2009.... Thanks for 14 unforgettable years Huck. You will forever be loved and missed.

#36 TheShow

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:26 PM

 

 

 

Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!

 
Can count on you to keep a thread solid.   Thanks for the addition..............

It's the usual formula. Crap article is posted, ML posts actual facts, trolls come out of the woodwork to flame him, even though this stuff is...his job. Rinse, repeat. I've given up posting worthwhile content here because it's the same stuff that gets tossed at ML over and over.

We condoning the personal stuff now?

Man things have changed here.

 

 

You have high standards, that we all know from your posts.   Sorry FYC no longer does and drop by once in awhile to see if we've turned things around and are worth your time.  

 

See ya round, dude...........

 

 

 

Naw, just checking out the hypocrisy really. You wagged your finger at me over and over because I didn't post all sunshine and rainbows opinions here and turn a blind eye to people constantly taking actual personal potshots at ML. It's kinda funny. 



#37 herbst20

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:56 PM


 


 

 

Guys! Stop peeing in the pool!

 
Can count on you to keep a thread solid.   Thanks for the addition..............
It's the usual formula. Crap article is posted, ML posts actual facts, trolls come out of the woodwork to flame him, even though this stuff is...his job. Rinse, repeat. I've given up posting worthwhile content here because it's the same stuff that gets tossed at ML over and over.

We condoning the personal stuff now?

Man things have changed here.
 
 
You have high standards, that we all know from your posts.   Sorry FYC no longer does and drop by once in awhile to see if we've turned things around and are worth your time.  
 
See ya round, dude...........
 
 
 
Naw, just checking out the hypocrisy really. You wagged your finger at me over and over because I didn't post all sunshine and rainbows opinions here and turn a blind eye to people constantly taking actual personal potshots at ML. It's kinda funny. 

Yes and Left Behind has been suspended. If it comes to it, others will be too

#38 stiffstick

 

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:24 PM

I'm new but I don't see any personal potshots...were they deleted?



#39 whalersfan

 

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:14 AM

Good articles and good conversation. As a parent with a 03 I can relate to a lot of this and what I have seen parents do in the last 7 years of youth hockey. I told my son many years ago that I wouldn't "sell the farm" for him to go play AAA like some of his old teammates have. This fall Tristan will be playing High school hockey for the Dubuque Devils in the Midwest Highschool Hockey League. I hope he has fun and they have a good team. Maybe he'll get seen at a state tournament or an away game where a scout might have a night off and check out a local midwest hockey game...maybe not, lol. I just hope when he's older he looks back and has a lot of great memories, and had fun!
We are a billet family for the Saints so I know what a lot of these kids families have to do to get them to the USHL. Kids leaving home at 14, being billeted away from home. Playing on every spring/summer showcase they can get in, camps...my God the money these families spend. If they tucked their 15-20 grand a year away from the time junior is 12-13 years old they'd have plenty of money to send him off to college when he was of age.


I hope it isn’t me being accused of taking “potshots”, I’m just trying to offer factual information based on experience, but don’t take my word for it players, parents, or anyone else can easily check things out for themselves when it comes to the veracity of public statements made by an Advisor/Agent.
Most firms use FOIA requests in preparation for litigation and the discovery process, there can sometimes be fees involved however they are minimal. You don’t need a lawyer to submit a FOIA request, anyone can do it. There is some information you need if you decide to do some checking, the name of the individual Advisor/Agent as well as any LLCs or Corps associated with the individual. In most cases when you are submitting a FOIA regarding student athletes you want to make sure that the submission includes that the record you seek MAY be within the University’s Compliance Office, however you shouldn’t limit it to the compliance office. Once you receive the responsive documents you may find that the student athlete name (s) have been redacted pursuant to FERPA (student privacy laws) which isn’t necessarily what you are looking for anyway.
If push comes to shove the NCAA allows hiring a lawyer, as long as the lawyer isn’t involved in any way with promoting the player and is only providing guidance to the family. Unfortunately, if things go south because of the actions of an Advisor/Agent a lawyer is needed to protect the student athlete, so player and parents alike should be quite careful.

Here are two examples of how easy it is to check things out.

University of New Hampshire

2. Requests for access to USNH public records should be made in writing and should include a specific description of the desired documents. All steps taken to comply with such requests should be documented in writing and should include a specific description of the documents that were made available.
https://www.usnh.edu...export/html/479

University of Massachusetts- Amherst

https://www.umassp.edu/public-records
https://www.umassp.e...ecords-requests



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