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Yeti

2017 USHL Phase II (Entry) Draft

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

USHL teams don’t need to spend “hundreds of thousands” on scouting, most of the scouting is already done for them by NHL, College, CHL, USAH, or league scouting staffs.​

 

I have to disagree with much of this. I don't know of any team relying on the NHL for a junior draft. Some NHL teams are now watching underage kids and some are not but I don't think they are passing a whole lot of that on to the USHL. I can assure you the USHL is not getting reports and trading information with CHL teams. A number of people in both leagues are friendly and talk but if you are going to be successful in the CHL or USHL you have to have your own staff and your own opinions.

 

There are such varying degrees of opinions on players that no way would I rely on word of mouth or people from other leagues at least as far as early round draft picks. Later on is a different story and maybe you take a chance. That doesn't mean USHL teams have to spend hundreds of thousands on scouting but they better have a staff out watching as many games as possible and forming their own opinions or they will not be successful.

 

And as for relying on USA Hockey for opinions.....I sure as hell wouldn't. And if you are relying on the league and other people and not getting out and doing it yourself, you will get what you deserve which is probably not much.

 

Disagreement can be healthy.

 

I know of several teams that rely on relationships with NHL staff to find players especially Euros in the CHL and the USHL. Many of the NHL staff come from the CHL and a few from the USHL, a phone call away. Some USHL coaches have GREAT relationships with CHL GMs and Coaches, and although the sharing process can be somewhat guarded it is there just the same. Take Bloomington for example, it would be kind of silly to think they don’t share up and down the line.

 

“That doesn't mean USHL teams have to spend hundreds of thousands on scouting but they better have a staff out watching as many games as possible and forming their own opinions or they will not be successful.”

 

You make my point, in that you have to look for yourself if you can, and that doesn’t mean a “Birddog” (Business card, and name on a website, no pay) alone taking a look.

 

“I can assure you the USHL is not getting reports and trading information with CHL teams.”

I can assure you that SOME are!

It is in many cases a friendly recruiting battle between some folks in the USHL and CHL and that doesn’t mean they don’t give up things to each other.

“And as for relying on USA Hockey for opinions.....I sure as hell wouldn't. And if you are relying on the league and other people and not getting out and doing it yourself, you will get what you deserve which is probably not much.”

 

Or Tier I coaches… Right? :)

 

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DetroitRocks    0
DetroitRocks

I agree with you that there are a number of strong relationships between USHL and CHL people but I guess my point is that there is likely not extensive trading of information going on as in a USHL team relies on CHL relationships to build their list. I can say from experience that there is a lot of talk between people in the leagues but I don't know how often a USHL person would go to a CHL relationship for more than a piece of advice on someone. While there are strong relationships I think there is also some caution about how much is shared in the battle for players.

 

As far as the NHL, I am saying that I would be very surprised to find a USHL leaning on an NHL person for the Phase I or even Phase II USHL draft. There are very few NHL scouts at most midget minor events and I can't imagine they would be a great source for a USHL team. I suppose it could happen but I think it would be rare. Now as far as older players, yes, that can definitely happen but when I was responding I was thinking in terms of specifically the Phase 1. I have never had much of a discussion with an NHL person on a kid that is in say his OHL/USHL draft year.

 

I just don't think that "most" of the scouting is done for USHL teams and they don't need to spend significant time on their own. They may get a lead but there is so much that goes into a draft that needs research. AAA coaches are always good for an opinion but there are so many times they steer you toward a player that doesn't do much for you. They know them best and see them in ways that junior teams do not but they are great sources of information and can tell you about a kid that might be a cancer. I view them as a better source of who to stay away from than who to pursue.

 

I could be wrong about some of these things and sometimes the USHL draft makes me wonder how much certain teams do put into scouting. I see some of them regularly and some almost never but it's the same for the CHL as well.

 

I wasn't sure from your last post but when you say you know USHL teams that rely on NHL staff to find players, what levels are they using that for? Older players?

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

I agree with you that there are a number of strong relationships between USHL and CHL people but I guess my point is that there is likely not extensive trading of information going on as in a USHL team relies on CHL relationships to build their list. I can say from experience that there is a lot of talk between people in the leagues but I don't know how often a USHL person would go to a CHL relationship for more than a piece of advice on someone. While there are strong relationships I think there is also some caution about how much is shared in the battle for players.

 

As far as the NHL, I am saying that I would be very surprised to find a USHL leaning on an NHL person for the Phase I or even Phase II USHL draft. There are very few NHL scouts at most midget minor events and I can't imagine they would be a great source for a USHL team. I suppose it could happen but I think it would be rare. Now as far as older players, yes, that can definitely happen but when I was responding I was thinking in terms of specifically the Phase 1. I have never had much of a discussion with an NHL person on a kid that is in say his OHL/USHL draft year.

 

I just don't think that "most" of the scouting is done for USHL teams and they don't need to spend significant time on their own. They may get a lead but there is so much that goes into a draft that needs research. AAA coaches are always good for an opinion but there are so many times they steer you toward a player that doesn't do much for you. They know them best and see them in ways that junior teams do not but they are great sources of information and can tell you about a kid that might be a cancer. I view them as a better source of who to stay away from than who to pursue.

 

I could be wrong about some of these things and sometimes the USHL draft makes me wonder how much certain teams do put into scouting. I see some of them regularly and some almost never but it's the same for the CHL as well.

 

I wasn't sure from your last post but when you say you know USHL teams that rely on NHL staff to find players, what levels are they using that for? Older players?

“I can say from experience that there is a lot of talk between people in the leagues but I don't know how often a USHL person would go to a CHL relationship for more than a piece of advice on someone.”

 

Interesting how some people have different experiences.

 

“As far as the NHL, I am saying that I would be very surprised to find a USHL leaning on an NHL person for the Phase I or even Phase II USHL draft.”

 

Always interesting to see who shows up at the WCC, DHC, and FPC from the various leagues, who they have real beer with, and which organization has the deeper expense pockets.

 

“As far as the NHL, I am saying that I would be very surprised to find a USHL leaning on an NHL person for the Phase I or even Phase II USHL draft. There are very few NHL scouts at most midget minor events and I can't imagine they would be a great source for a USHL team.”

 

Interesting, how about secondary school, in the States and the Canadian and US Prep school leagues, is the NHL ignoring those as well?

 

“As far as the NHL, I am saying that I would be very surprised to find a USHL leaning on an NHL person for the Phase I or even Phase II USHL draft. There are very few NHL scouts at most midget minor events and I can't imagine they would be a great source for a USHL team. I suppose it could happen but I think it would be rare. Now as far as older players, yes, that can definitely happen but when I was responding I was thinking in terms of specifically the Phase 1. I have never had much of a discussion with an NHL person on a kid that is in say his OHL/USHL draft year.”

 

I see Yeti’s team went heavy on BCHL and AJ kids in their Phase II picks, perhaps Yeti would know where Hull got the insight on them, and if it included some, how to steal info, or if he is just relying on salesmanship?

 

“I could be wrong about some of these things and sometimes the USHL draft makes me wonder how much certain teams do put into scouting. I see some of them regularly and some almost never but it's the same for the CHL as well.”

 

Maybe you are hanging in the wrong Pubs?

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Canarse    2
Canarse

 

 

Any GM or scouting staff who rely solely on what a Tier I coach says about a player aren’t doing their job. A Tier I coach has a responsibility to sell his players and try and move them up for the good of the organization and his job so anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt. You have to watch the player play and project what they might do at the next level. There are so many opportunities to watch players there is no excuse for not doing so and it is only a matter of where to go to look, and for those of us who can freely go back and forth between the Canadian and US Borders the options are unlimited. A better resource then a Tier I coach are the US College assistants, the CHL scouts, and the NHL scouting staffs, especially with Euros, all of whom have done their due diligence and can help to make the decision where to go or where not to go. Those relationships are built on credibility and friendships. As an example, how do you think LeRose and Varady came up with Pospisil and Tolvanen it wasn’t by talking to Tier I coaches. Take a look at SC’s Draft see if there is a familiar name there.

I never said USHL teams relied solely on Tier 1 coaches. I said they listen to some Tier 1 coaches, and those are coaches they have relationships with as well. Coaches that have sent them good players in the past. I could give you very specific examples, but I do not want to embarrass any organization or betray the confidence of a coach. Every team wants to give the impression they have scouts scouring the country, when in truth their budgets are limited. Too many teams in the USHL go under or dormant to think they spend hundreds of thousands on scouting.

 

 

I understood what you meant, and sure they listen to SOME Tier I coaches. My point was you can’t rely solely on what a Tier I coach says you have to watch the kid, which is pretty easy given the number of games, camps, USAH identification camps etc. You can always rely on Tier I coaches for camp fillers, as a matter of fact most of them try and get their non-drafted 3/4 kids to a USHL or NAHL camp to try and keep the money flowing in to their organization while at the same time supplying camp fillers for the USHL team.

 

USHL teams don’t need to spend “hundreds of thousands” on scouting, most of the scouting is already done for them by NHL, College, CHL, USAH, or league scouting staffs. The WHL Bantam Draft just concluded and is always for players one year younger than the USHL Draft Phase I Draft age which means all the USHL GM has to do is focus on CHL pre-scouted kids. USAH has regional camps where supposedly the best players from each region of the States show up, and of course there are always the various league “Combines”.

 

Of course, there are always the “Advisors” some credible and some not who are on the phone and emailing GMs on almost a daily basis. Some of those “Advisors” even show up at some of these camps trying to fool parents and players about how important they are for their kid to make it to the show. The calls and emails get answered for the reputable Advisors, and for the others the jokes fly with staff when the message is received, of course the brunt of the jokes goes back to the parents and tells them what a great relationship he has with the GM/Coach.

 

 

If they listen to SOME Tier I coaches, why are you disagreeing with my post? From the group of posts it seems the bottom line is USHL coaches/GMs listen to a number of people from CHL, NHL, advisors and Tier I coaches/scouts to make their decisions. Sounds logical to me. Every coach and team has a group of contacts and uses them to the best of their ability. The hockey world is pretty small. Everyone talks to the people they know. The USHL may be the top Tier I league in the USA, but they don't have unlimited funds for scouting. They get information from where they can, which makes a lot of sense.

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herbst20    0
herbst20

Fargo's 16th round phase II pick Mason Primeau (Wayne's son) has signed in the OHL

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DM47    0
DM47

Fargo's 16th round phase II pick Mason Primeau (Wayne's son) has signed in the OHL

Figured he would, remember hearing Keith talking about Mason on the U-show or could have been on NHL radio during the top prospects game about him being from Ontario and growing up with the OHL. Seems like Eades likes to use his last couple picks on long shots. Primeau and Scheel (going to BCHL) this year. Tomek his first draft with Fargo 2 years ago when everyone knew he was going to UND.

Edited by DM47

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herbst20    0
herbst20

Ryan Kennedy reporting that Cedar Rapids 3rd Round pick Sam Rhodes will sign with Barrie of the OHL, He was the only Phase II draft pick of Cedar Rapids not in Camp.

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Mr Ricochet    2
Mr Ricochet

Ryan Kennedy reporting that Cedar Rapids 3rd Round pick Sam Rhodes will sign with Barrie of the OHL, He was the only Phase II draft pick of Cedar Rapids not in Camp.

 

That's good. Great news.

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