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MadhouseOnHickman

Returners-----Des Moines

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MadhouseOnHickman    0
MadhouseOnHickman

A bit old but some reading on the Bucs' outlook for next season. Bucs Site/Erick Zamora Link

Old but thanks for the share Ricochet! Blue line getting a huge return with Scooter Brickey. Biggest question mark will be between the pipes

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jimindm    0
jimindm

Have friends that play adult hockey league at the arena. At a meeting they were told the season is up in the air. The USHL has taken over the team.

 

Not real sure what that means, being that ownership still owns the arena.

 

It has been rumored that the last few years that ownership is trying to sell the team. As fan and as other have posted, they have done very little in many ways to do anything to enhance a fan experience. Have heard many times about interested parties wanting to buy it and could just not come to terms. A few groups have been led by people n the community, and a few former players have been mentioned.

 

Again, I am not sure what this means, and I do not suppose you will see any kind of press release about this.

 

Has the league ever sort of taken over a team?

 

Since most teams play in a rented arena, how could it work with former ownership actually owning the arena? I could see how the league could take over a lease or something, but to take the team over and have to negotiate with the former owners to play in their building, I just do not know.

 

I really hope that some of this is just plain not true. But the way it has played out since the ownership has bought the team, I would not be surprised. I have heard for years that the league has pretty much been watching what is going on here.

 

Awful late in the off season for something like this to happen. Now that I have heard it from a few different sources it just kind of makes me sick.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

Scoopy stuff if true, Jim.......... My first question if this is true would be what has ownership done to have the league step into their affairs? I know a league, every league, has language of rules and standards to adhere to and can legally take over. If true we'll hear about it soon enough.

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Maiden    2
Maiden

Usually a league takes over a teams operations when they cant keep up with there financial obligations or if criminal activity has occured.

Seems weird this is leaking out now right before the season.

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Glenn Gumbley    0
Glenn Gumbley

Have friends that play adult hockey league at the arena. At a meeting they were told the season is up in the air. The USHL has taken over the team.

 

Not real sure what that means, being that ownership still owns the arena.

 

It has been rumored that the last few years that ownership is trying to sell the team. As fan and as other have posted, they have done very little in many ways to do anything to enhance a fan experience. Have heard many times about interested parties wanting to buy it and could just not come to terms. A few groups have been led by people n the community, and a few former players have been mentioned.

 

Again, I am not sure what this means, and I do not suppose you will see any kind of press release about this.

 

Has the league ever sort of taken over a team?

 

Since most teams play in a rented arena, how could it work with former ownership actually owning the arena? I could see how the league could take over a lease or something, but to take the team over and have to negotiate with the former owners to play in their building, I just do not know.

 

I really hope that some of this is just plain not true. But the way it has played out since the ownership has bought the team, I would not be surprised. I have heard for years that the league has pretty much been watching what is going on here.

 

Awful late in the off season for something like this to happen. Now that I have heard it from a few different sources it just kind of makes me sick.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the Peleds buy a NAHL team in Minnesota for the son to play on, and then bought the Bucks for him to play on?

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jimindm    0
jimindm

I think they did buy a team, before the Bucs for him to play. I am not sure what league, and really not even sure how they left that team.

 

I did kind of a search about leagues taking over operations of teams, in many sports. It does appear it is done with regularity. Much like Maiden said it is usually for the leagues sake. So no real shake up. I even ran across a few that it was done while a sale was happening or a sale was pending. Not always over money matters.

 

I would guess we will never really know the reason, if this is true.

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hackshow22    0
hackshow22

The NAHL has taken over a few teams in recent memory. It took over Port Huron a few years back because the owner wasn't paying the bills and wanted out. Not too much of a different personality from the Peleds as far as operating procedures go.

 

If the league is taking over the team, that would be a Godsend. Next step would be a new owner.

Edited by hackshow22

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BackCheck    0
BackCheck

The NAHL has taken over a few teams in recent memory. It took over Port Huron a few years back because the owner wasn't paying the bills and wanted out. Not too much of a different personality from the Peleds as far as operating procedures go.

 

 

Actually, I think this was after they moved to Connelsville, PA and ran into a LOT of issues. The arena was a joke and the operators did not want to cooperate to make things any better. I went to one game there and was a little stunned. The fact that it was also a roller skating rink was odd enough but it was the parking that took the cake. I don't mind paying to park in the grass, but mow the field first. The grass ate the Fiat ahead of me, the owner didn't look happy about it. Later on in the season, the financial ends started to get weird and the bank backing them was starting to get scared off. I had a few people telling me mixed info about it so I don't really know what was true about that but shortly after I heard the ownership pretty much just walked away and the NAHL ran the team the remainder of the season.

 

Flaky ownership aside, it was a fairly different situation than DM, but then again probably all of these cases are unique beasts. I guess it just makes me thankful the ownership in Youngstown seems to be solid, even when the fan base and other factors might not be.

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hackshow22    0
hackshow22

 

The NAHL has taken over a few teams in recent memory. It took over Port Huron a few years back because the owner wasn't paying the bills and wanted out. Not too much of a different personality from the Peleds as far as operating procedures go.

 

 

Actually, I think this was after they moved to Connelsville, PA and ran into a LOT of issues. The arena was a joke and the operators did not want to cooperate to make things any better. I went to one game there and was a little stunned. The fact that it was also a roller skating rink was odd enough but it was the parking that took the cake. I don't mind paying to park in the grass, but mow the field first. The grass ate the Fiat ahead of me, the owner didn't look happy about it. Later on in the season, the financial ends started to get weird and the bank backing them was starting to get scared off. I had a few people telling me mixed info about it so I don't really know what was true about that but shortly after I heard the ownership pretty much just walked away and the NAHL ran the team the remainder of the season.

 

Flaky ownership aside, it was a fairly different situation than DM, but then again probably all of these cases are unique beasts. I guess it just makes me thankful the ownership in Youngstown seems to be solid, even when the fan base and other factors might not be.

 

Yes, you are correct on the Port Huron relocation to Connelsville. Thanks for the reminder on that! The issues with the owner started LONG before Connelsville, and was the main reason for the move. Predictably, those problems continued once they set up shop there as you cited instances of just a few of them.

 

Maybe I chose a bad comparison, but my point was the way in which these two owners operate(d) and the results haven't been much different.

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redwing77    0
redwing77

I do not know much of the history regarding the Bucs franchise and I don't know anything beyond what I've read so far but...

 

Those of you who have some "in the know:" do you think this could result in the Bucs either relocating to the nice arena in town (sharing it with the Iowa Wild) or relocating the franchise to somewhere that is already rumored to be in the running?

 

It's interesting and a little sad how much uncertainty there is amongst the futures of several USHL franchises and Des Moines is just another (Bloomington, Madison, Indiana, and there's always the interesting land situation in Lincoln...)

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Maiden    2
Maiden

I do not know much of the history regarding the Bucs franchise and I don't know anything beyond what I've read so far but...

 

Those of you who have some "in the know:" do you think this could result in the Bucs either relocating to the nice arena in town (sharing it with the Iowa Wild) or relocating the franchise to somewhere that is already rumored to be in the running?

 

It's interesting and a little sad how much uncertainty there is amongst the futures of several USHL franchises and Des Moines is just another (Bloomington, Madison, Indiana, and there's always the interesting land situation in Lincoln...)

Des Moines fans - be careful what you wish for.

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redwing77    0
redwing77

 

I do not know much of the history regarding the Bucs franchise and I don't know anything beyond what I've read so far but...

 

Those of you who have some "in the know:" do you think this could result in the Bucs either relocating to the nice arena in town (sharing it with the Iowa Wild) or relocating the franchise to somewhere that is already rumored to be in the running?

 

It's interesting and a little sad how much uncertainty there is amongst the futures of several USHL franchises and Des Moines is just another (Bloomington, Madison, Indiana, and there's always the interesting land situation in Lincoln...)

Des Moines fans - be careful what you wish for.

 

Just as a clarification (perhaps unnecessary) but I'm a Lancers fan, not a Des Moines fan.

 

I'd rather the Bucs not relocate or fold. Des Moines isn't that far away from Omaha. I WOULD like them to get a new arena. Buccaneer Arena is a dump.

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hackshow22    0
hackshow22

If the Bucs relocate, that would be awful. Its a great location for a USHL franchise- medium sized US city, good population size, communities with ongoing development and growth, great fans, education at schools is really good, middle of the USHL footprint, etc.

 

Regarding the ice rink situation and facilities in the area:

 

People involved in the local hockey scene have watched both ice arenas in the GDM area (Bucs Arena, and Metro Ice Sports Facility) go to hell in a hand basket for the last several years. It goes without saying, but Bucs Arena is old and needs alot of help that Bucs ownership does not care to do anything about. Metro just crossed the 20 year-old threshold and is in need of serious repair as well.

 

There is a group of local businessmen and community members who are trying to get a new facility built in the area. Some of them have played a major role on the youth hockey scene for years. West Des Moines is where the growth continues to be in the metro area, and the city of West Des Moines has committed to a feasibility study for a future rink. The venue would have a USHL sized arena with an adjacent practice facility. There are several steps to this being a "go", and it may not be for a couple years, but I can see it happening in the near future.

 

All of the info available at this time (to the public) is at: www.iowaicesportsfoundation.org/.

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jimindm    0
jimindm

As I said earlier a lot of this is still up in the air. I would think even if the USHL took over control, that they just can not yank ownership. I would have to think there is a franchise agreement somewhere that would not let that happen. Imagine just taking a team away from owners, and the owners are just out.

 

As far as the bucs ever playing DT, I am not sure that will ever happen. I think a lot happens on the ownership side before that will ever be considered. Meaning that if the league took over operations, but could not get a deal with the arena Pelids own, then maybe. The biggest reason I could see is the availability of open dates. Global spectrum manages WFA and they are doing a great job. It is quite a busy place. I would guess they do as much as they can to stagger out venues thereto give them time to convert it to what ever sport is in need.

 

Every year it seems like they are converting it more often, for sporting events that are stacked on top of each other. I just could not imagine they could accommodate that many more events.

 

This is the first I have heard of the group and WDM doing a study. I did not see any figures posted, but one has to wonder how much the city is actually paying. If it is only several thousand, I would not put much thought into that. Such a small amount is just some slush fund money a politician throws out, for a group of large donors. Now if it is a lot, then I could see how it would be sort of out of the hands of just one guy and likely have to be talked about with in the city somewhat. Now that could be something.

 

Many of those guys are some of the same names popping up in the rumors of who is out to purchase the BUCS. WDM is likely one of the fastest growing cities in the midwest. I could see where they could be interested, but they have a lot of irons in the fire. Development is rocking there and building anything like they are talking about would move it most likely to the western side. Not sure that would be a great move.

 

Bucs arena could no doubt use some upgrading. But unless the current ownership has some astronomical number in mind I would think they could work with the city of Urbandale and get close to the same deal. You would have to think the K-Mart stores days are numbered.

 

Let me put my tin foil hat on for a few paragraphs. The one group that has not been mentioned is the wild ownership group. I think they have done a lot in the metro in the way of supporting hockey. If you remember bucs ownership kind of baled on the metro, even fired some staff that was affiliated with it. If I am not mistaken the wild have kind of taken it over, I think it is their practice ice and I think they have supported youth hockey there.

 

I could see the wild, blowing them all away. You do not have to look far to see the NHL is looking at youth to model into future players. Even staff from this level are moving up with regularity. In the big picture $15-20 million is not much to them. If they came knocking on any city door in the metro, some body had better start listening.

 

I think I read somewhere that they just bought a team for sort of a farm team to the AHL Wild If I recall it is in the upper midwest footprint. Imagine if they could assemble teams clear down in the junior ranks, in a small foot print.

 

All in all, I think all of this is the result of the mismanagement of the bucs. It sure looks like they have kind of stood apart and watched the hockey world go buy. You have the wild doing things over the top, and the bucs can not even get the bare basics done right.

 

I have always said the bucs have a good deal going, likely the best of any team in the league. Located in the center of the league footprint and own everything. Just imagine what other teams negotiate just to get a cut of the concessions and parking. The bucs get it all and never negotiate a thing.

 

Current bucs ownership has not made many good choices in the past, but with what is happening around them, they had better get it figured out. It sure looks like others are sort of tired playing their game, and ready to go play there own.

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hackshow22    0
hackshow22

Great post Jim! The feasibility study begins August 8th, so we'll find out soon enough.

 

As for the ownership changing hands, that would be a long process whether the league assumed control of the team or it was sold to another ownership group.

 

Again, great post!

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MadhouseOnHickman    0
MadhouseOnHickman

I have been hearing these rumors for years 🙄

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MadhouseOnHickman    0
MadhouseOnHickman

.

Edited by MadhouseOnHickman

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MadhouseOnHickman    0
MadhouseOnHickman

"sources" are from the adult recreational league. I'm very close with people that play in that league and I have not heard these rumors at all.... are you just stirring up the pot Jimi? The bucs own the arena and land it stands on, the league would have a hard time stepping in. Try to stay positive and hope for another solid season from the bucs.

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Yeti    0
Yeti

"sources" are from the adult recreational league. I'm very close with people that play in that league and I have not heard these rumors at all.... are you just stirring up the pot Jimi? The bucs own the arena and land it stands on, the league would have a hard time stepping in. Try to stay positive and hope for another solid season from the bucs.

 

Jim has been contributing on this board a long time, MOH. He's not a pot-stirrer.

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jimindm    0
jimindm

Not stirring the pot at all. Said in the first post that is what I heard from guys in the adult league. I did not hear it first hand so take it at that.

 

There is no doubt that ownership owns the team and building, I even stated that I think they likely have the best deal in the league, when it comes to that.

 

I think you are completely wrong that a league could not step in at any time. At the junior level on up. They will and they have. I would agree in the case of a team playing in a building they own, would certainly be a little harder to do. To think that any sports team is bigger than the league they play in, is just plain foolish.

 

I would even suspect that the league has just this problem, concerning the bucs, and how they really can control some things. In most other arenas, it effects the team none and it would go towards a landlord.

 

Trying to stay positive. I always thought if the team could get a better product on the ice, then better things would come. If you had ever been to many games before the current ownership took over, there is no doubt you have to see they could do better. The team is better and I hope it is even better this year, but if you can not get and keep fans coming it does no good.

 

I think you can have good hockey in an old barn. Matter of fact I would guess there are many fans that are OK with it. It is all about the fan experience, and current ownership misses at at all levels. Even when you think it can not get any worst it does.

 

Solid seasons or not, if the fan experience is not there, no team can make it with out butts in the seats.

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kwey24    0
kwey24

Minnesota/Iowa Wild and new rinks in Des Moines: Not going to happen, unfortunately. My understanding is that the Wild ownership does not have an interest in philanthropically building arenas like the Anaheim Ducks have. That's not to say the Wild might not donate some to the cause and be interested in having their AHL team practice at it; but, they're not going to bankroll it.

 

Future of the Bucs: There is none at Buc Arena. There is a small cadre of fans who love the team and the arena; but, new fans (particularly new fans with money) are not going to the Bucs. They are going to the Iowa Wild and it's all about creature comforts. People with disposable income just aren't going to take their family to a facility as dingy as Buc Arena when Wells Fargo Arena and the Iowa Wild are right there. If West Des Moines gets the Cedar Rapids-caliber facility that's being sought after, I have little doubt the Bucs will average over 3,000 fans per game. The Bucs and the Wild can co-exist; but, the Bucs must get a new arena. That said, if WDM gets such a new facility, I doubt any lease is every signed with the Bucs unless there is different ownership. If the Bucs get a new facility, they suddenly rocket back toward being a destination for USHL-caliber players. There are a lot of good education options in Des Moines (high school and college) for the players while they're here.

 

Growth of West Des Moines: West Des Moines is growing some, but the true population growth has been in Ankeny, Waukee, and Johnston in recent years. That's where the money has gone, too. (I'm waiting for the new houses near the golf course in Ankeny to start having gold driveways.) That's not to say there isn't still money in West Des Moines--there is. But, old West Des Moines is starting to have a lot of the same problems Urbandale is having to a larger degree. Urbandale is, more and more, reminding me of Bloomington, Minnesota--a suburb past its prime that still has some nice areas but, for the most part, is starting to see an increase and crime and more and more buildings in disrepair. We're not Detroit by any stretch; but... I'd compare it to Richfield, Minnesota; but, I'm not sure a nice part of Richfield still exists, so I choose Bloomington. RIchfield and Bensenville, Illinois, equate well... Des Moines proper is becoming Chicago-lite. We're not at two homicides a day just yet; but, we're getting there. While West Des Moines is in better shape than Urbandale, the writing is on the wall to me that West Des Moines is starting its decline. If it makes anyone in the DM metro feel any better, all the apartment complexes Johnston has put up in the last three years should help ensure that it starts going downhill, too, in 15 years. Apartment complexes typically start out nice; but, almost inevitably go to heck and become cesspools. Crime has already risen in Johnston to coincide with this (mostly petty crime; although, there was a murder of note in an apartment complex near my house that left a couple kids at my son's school orphans). The number of cars parked on the streets of Johnston that don't appear as if they can roll (or at least roll well) has definitely increase, as have the number of cars that appear to have been used for Monster Jam at Wells Fargo Arena in January.

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Maiden    2
Maiden

I agree that Ankeny IA is a beautiful town and growing for sure. Is there any possibility of the Bucs playing in Ames at Iowa State University?

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kwey24    0
kwey24

Do you mean an exhibition game against Iowa State or playing in Ames for a season?

 

If the latter, Ames' locker rooms are already spoken for and I doubt the Bucs would average more than a few hundred fans per game up in Ames (not enough Des Moines fans would travel on a consistent basis to pack Ames, which can only fit about 1,000 people anyway). You'd lose major, major money at Ames and Cyclone Hockey and the AMHA have the inside track to all the arena signage, etc.

 

Exhibitions between the Bucs and Cyclones don't work out, if that's what you meant. With the USHL pre-season becoming more developed the last 20 years, the days of Iowa State playing exhibitions against Des Moines, Sioux City, and Waterloo are long done (even though Iowa State is better than it's ever been in terms of caliber of players top to bottom). Although, back in the day, a lot of the exhibitions against USHL teams were in the middle of the season. But this was before places like Lincoln even had a team, let alone everywhere else the USHL is now. When the USHL was truly a Tier II league, things were different. Iowa State hasn't approached the Bucs about playing in a long time. There's a lot to lose and not much to gain for either side. If the Bucs were to lose to Iowa State, that would not look good for the USHL--even though the NHL now has interest in the ACHA to a degree that different NHL cities and organizations are vying to host the national championships. If Iowa State loses to the Bucs, that doesn't really help recruiting. The score between the Bucs and the Cyclones would be closer now than at any other time since the USHL turned Tier I, though. Jason Fairman has Iowa State playing very detailed hockey. More detailed than the NHL playoffs. (I swear at the Sharks' players way more than I do Iowa State's players--the Cyclones make far fewer stupid decisions.)

 

One ACHA development to be on the lookout for is the ACHA's NAIA division, which is going to offer scholarships. Those teams could become pretty good in short order. Indiana Tech is already pretty reasonable and will only get better being able to offer scholarships. There are a number of other NAIA schools currently in the ACHA, including ACHA D1, that could follow suit and join the original members. I could see some lower-end USHL guys opting to go to certain ACHA NAIA schools a few years down the road.

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jimindm    0
jimindm

Kewy24 I think you overall assessment of the metro area is pretty close. You are right that a few of the suburbs have had very large growth recently. That is not a good thing in some ways. Those suburbs are dealing with that growth now. You have a lot of taxpayers paying for the new areas, that have not come online for paying taxes. Due to abatement. Sure it will catch up at some point, but some of them are feeling the pinch of providing services now, while not getting the taxes of a vast amount of property.

 

I think the bucs moving into the far reaches of any of the metro is a deal breaker. I am not sure many towns would be willing to throw the kind of funding at it, that t would take to build that new arena. I think DM itself could and would likely welcome it. They have plenty of space in the MLK corridor, and if you want to get to the outer reaches, the airport all the way east near the bypass is full of empty ground.

 

Those suburbs are sort of getting picky with what they want, while DM is reaching out, trying to get it.

 

Tin foil hat time again, but do you really think the wild would never think about an arena. A place they could call their own. I think it is a way different business model than most businesses have. If it could improve any of the operations they have why would they not think about it. Especially if a city will step up for them. Of course they could not let it bleed a bundle of cash, but their goal is producing, and getting the top players to the NHL level. That makes the serious money.

 

I am not sure you need to throw the towel in on the current arena. While you are right there are many people that would never go there, but there are still a lot that would. Bucs hockey is tradition for people to enjoy a game or two a year. A place that you can go and be in the action and get a great game experience. You will never have that at WFA.

 

The problem with the arena, is not totally the arena. A little league ball park is managed better. They have raised the prices and dumped the service. Whether you are out on a date night or taking the wife and kids, who would want to deal with the service that you get any more at Bucs arena.

 

I can not tell you how many times people have sat around us, and have missed a significant portion of the game, waiting in line to get in, or waiting in a concession line. One game you just kind of say it happens, but it is game after game. Believe me they talk about how much they spent and how long it took.

 

There is no doubt the arena could use some upgrading, but that is no reason, to not do the best with what you have. If the very basics are not being met now, a new arena or anything else will not help.

 

What I just do not get is how clueless ownership or management is. It is not rocket science. Do they not ever go to other entertainment venues to see them in action. No games at the barnstormers, or iowa cubs. Never been to the civic center or a movie theatre.

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