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#41 Bevalaqua

 

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:40 PM

.. I think this gives the USHL some major competition for the east coast players who can now stay closer to home.

 

I think the best players from the East coast will still find their way to the USHL.  It's by far the best league, and the best players want to play at the highest level.  My son grew up playing in the East and every top player he played with/against wound up in the USHL.   I think the NAHL might be slightly affected by the new league, though... 



#42 herbst20

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:48 PM

Chris Dilks take on the new league:http://www.sbncolleg...ment-conference

#43 minor life

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:19 PM

 

I think that could be the case in the future until everyone can see what the leave is all about, but for now, the USHL has the name recognition among players/scouts/advisors to get east coast talent.


USA Hockey refused to sanction this league so I would assume they went to AAU which isn't recognized by IIHF or Hockey Canada so it will be interesting to see how this plays out especially when it comes to player movement.

 

No decision on AAU or independent has been made yet.  No one is worried about USAH, HC or IIHF in this group.


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#44 minor life

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:24 PM

Chris Dilks take on the new league:http://www.sbncolleg...ment-conference

 

With all due respect to Dilks, he has it wrong.  I have spoken to people who were in the room.  The funding of how it worked wasn't an official objection, just a big point of contention.  Anyone who thinks the USHL and NAHL aren't going to be effected has their heads in the sand and doesn't know the players involved.  If the USHL and NAHL weren't afraid of the USPHL, they both would have voted for their Tier II plan which came with a Committee recommendation for approval.


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#45 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:26 PM

Chris Dilks take on the new league:http://www.sbncolleg...ment-conference

 

 

Nice find herby, and solid reporting by Dilks.    ............... This:

 


Not all agreed with that decision, but as mandates go, keeping youth hockey fees lower probably ranks higher on the list for USA Hockey than creating another Tier II junior league.

 

No doubt. IMO you need the pipeline full and don't want to be too top heavy.   Not sure how Mr Jones would feel about ponying up an extra couple hundred for 6 yr old johnny to play to support the NCDC.

 

But with that league playing in rec arenas owned by team owners and the footprint reasonable they can keep costs lower than say the NAHL.  In those arenas they won't be getting much from ticket sales nor will they have much, if any, advertising budget.  It follows not much sponsor money with few there to see their advertising.

 

I wish the new league the best but man it seems so tribal and xenophobic.   As always any action brings unintended consequences. Lets hope those are good ones for the sport and the kids. 


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#46 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:31 PM

 

Chris Dilks take on the new league:http://www.sbncolleg...ment-conference

 

With all due respect to Dilks, he has it wrong.  I have spoken to people who were in the room.  The funding of how it worked wasn't an official objection, just a big point of contention.  Anyone who thinks the USHL and NAHL aren't going to be effected has their heads in the sand and doesn't know the players involved.  If the USHL and NAHL weren't afraid of the USPHL, they both would have voted for their Tier II plan which came with a Committee recommendation for approval.

 

 

Can they play, and stay solvent, in rec rinks with 100 fans watching at 6 bucks a pop ML?   Can they keep all but homesick kids in this Eastern rec arena league (ERAL) with the lure of the USHL?   ............ An NHL team will send its scouts to a USHL game or an NCDC game? 

 

W


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#47 minor life

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 02:37 PM

Rico, these guys are billionaires.  They own the rinks they play out of.  These guys have more money than USA Hockey has.  Several NHL people involved with USPHL, several influential people.

 

The USHL and NAHL know that NCAA scouting budgets are being cut.  With more than half the NCAA programs located in the USPHL footprint, that means high visibility with lower travel costs. 

 

The business model for the NAHL and USHL has proven to be a money loser.  Not a break even.  Lets see how many teams fold or move this summer and next.

 

Do you want to move to a city and play in Cedar Rapids or Bloomington?  Or do you want to play in Boston?  Why would the USHL have showcases on the east coast if they didn't understand the value of those markets and the players in them?  Why would the NAHL be so desperate to expand into the East?  Because they know what is coming.

 

Too many people are over valuing the lure of the USHL and NAHL.  In the east they are just another set of initials, and the majority of kids that left, only left because it was free to play.  The lure is not the level of play and it is definitely not the exposure the USHL and NAHL provide.  It was only because it was free to play.  The USHL and NAHL lose their only advantage with the USPHL having a free to play division.

 

The USHL and NAHL now also have no idea what the competition is doing.  They wont have to operate under the same rules.  Wont have to abide by compensation rules, or import restrictions. 

 

The official reasons for the denial are that the USPHL had 11 teams, when Tier II calls for 12 teams after the NAHL changed the rule from 8 teams this summer.  Why did they change the rule?  Because they knew the USPHL was coming.  The second official reason was because they USPHL wanted to play 50 regular season games.  The NAHL changed that rule to 60 this summer as well because they knew what was coming.

 

Lets all take a step back and look at what this is.  It is a power struggle over tryout money.  That's it.  Without all the massive tryout camps with 200 players per camp, the USHL and NAHL business models fail even more.  With more competition is larger population markets, those tryout numbers get diluted. 

 

With players and parents figuring out these tryout camps are really just a scam and less than three percent of the players attending an open camp ever make a team, you have trouble in the consumer marketplace.

 

The powers that be are afraid of competition.  They should be, and now they just pissed the competition off.  Dumbest move in USA Hockey recent history.


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#48 Maiden

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:21 PM

The USHL showcase in Youngstown OH is considered the east coast?



#49 BackCheck

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:30 PM

The USHL showcase in Youngstown OH is considered the east coast?

 

Actually, it was at the UPMC Lemieux Sports Complex in Cranberry PA, probably about 20-30 minutes outside Youngstown. It's the practice facility for the Pittsburgh Penguins.



#50 minor life

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:38 PM

They have also done events in NY.  All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you. 


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#51 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:10 PM



Rico, these guys are billionaires.  They own the rinks they play out of.  These guys have more money than USA Hockey has.  Several NHL people involved with USPHL, several influential people.

 

The USHL and NAHL know that NCAA scouting budgets are being cut.  With more than half the NCAA programs located in the USPHL footprint, that means high visibility with lower travel costs. 

 

The business model for the NAHL and USHL has proven to be a money loser.  Not a break even.  Lets see how many teams fold or move this summer and next.

 

Do you want to move to a city and play in Cedar Rapids or Bloomington?  Or do you want to play in Boston?  Why would the USHL have showcases on the east coast if they didn't understand the value of those markets and the players in them?  Why would the NAHL be so desperate to expand into the East?  Because they know what is coming.

 

Too many people are over valuing the lure of the USHL and NAHL.  In the east they are just another set of initials, and the majority of kids that left, only left because it was free to play.  The lure is not the level of play and it is definitely not the exposure the USHL and NAHL provide.  It was only because it was free to play.  The USHL and NAHL lose their only advantage with the USPHL having a free to play division.

 

The USHL and NAHL now also have no idea what the competition is doing.  They wont have to operate under the same rules.  Wont have to abide by compensation rules, or import restrictions. 

 

The official reasons for the denial are that the USPHL had 11 teams, when Tier II calls for 12 teams after the NAHL changed the rule from 8 teams this summer.  Why did they change the rule?  Because they knew the USPHL was coming.  The second official reason was because they USPHL wanted to play 50 regular season games.  The NAHL changed that rule to 60 this summer as well because they knew what was coming.

 

Lets all take a step back and look at what this is.  It is a power struggle over tryout money.  That's it.  Without all the massive tryout camps with 200 players per camp, the USHL and NAHL business models fail even more.  With more competition is larger population markets, those tryout numbers get diluted. 

 

With players and parents figuring out these tryout camps are really just a scam and less than three percent of the players attending an open camp ever make a team, you have trouble in the consumer marketplace.

 

The powers that be are afraid of competition.  They should be, and now they just pissed the competition off.  Dumbest move in USA Hockey recent history.

 

 

I'll leave this alone as it can go on for 75 pages.  You're dug in a few feet deep and that's more than fine.   We'll see if the rec arena league attracts kids and scouts.  Bottom line.  If they don't and a kid had the skills to play USHL but doesn't he stunted his own growth, period. 

 

Kids don't leave for the USHL cuz the competition is so good but do cuz it's free?  Cmon, ML......  I don't want a kid who doesn't look to play at the highest level.

 

No import restrictions?   A Vladar is gonna leave the Czech Republic to play in the USPHL thingy?   Boston is gonna want (allow) him to play there.   Any European listed on central scouting is gonna choose the rec rink league over the USHL, or NAHL?    ....No ML, the import restrictions are less than relevant.  ..........All these Euro goalies boxed out of Major Junior are gonna flock to the rec arena league instead of where they're going now, the USHL?

 

The Steel have a billionaire owner and they play in a nice rec rink.   All kinds of NHL types are parts of USHL ownership groups, why does the new league have an advantage there? 

 

Guess my head is in the sand. 

 

And the tryout money.   All leagues do it but the difference is the new league will have a much lower level of competition than the USHL.  So your 500 bucks gets you where you belong if you make it. 


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#52 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:14 PM

They have also done events in NY.  All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you. 

 

ML, you been to a USHL game lately.   That's the koolaid every elite player that doesn't want to play Major Junior drinks along with NHL scouts and GM's.   Have you looked to see how many USHL players are being drafted?  


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#53 Maiden

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:16 PM

They have also done events in NY.  All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you. 

 

Pardon my ignorance but how long ago was that?



#54 minor life

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 05:37 PM

Was in NY for the 14-15 season last.  Called the Atlantic Challenge.  Ceased because the owners in Muskegon who hosted at their Long Island arena went bankrupt.  The USHL and NAHL are extremely active in scouting out east, the rosters prove it.  The NTDP roster proves it too.

 

Rico, I see more USHL games than most people.  We publish more stories on how good the league is and have it rated evenly with the OHL now.  But I am not drinking the koolaide for any league. 

 

If you research the USPHL, you will see they don't need to sell a single ticket.  The "tax" on players to make the free to play division will be about $100 per year for AAA players.  This organization has 144 teams in it.  This isn't some start up, or some group of rookies.  The Flyers are owned by the NHL Flyers.  The Islanders have investors within the NHL Islanders.  The Bruins have Bruins money behind them.

 

Think what you want.  Fans don't get players to the NHL.  Fans and arena sizes don't get any players to the NCAA.  Scouts don't care how many fans any team gets except their own.  A 6000 seat arena isn't a bragging point when you have 600 people in it.

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products.  Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP. 

 

As for the tryout money, I know 6 NAHL teams alone that would fold if that money takes a dip by 10% from last season.  I am aware of 3 NAHL teams for sale now, and 2 USHL teams that aren't exactly in a good position.  Why is that?  It certainly isn't because they are flush with cash. 

 

This isn't a discussion of who has the better league now.  Its a discussion over what is the better business model, and who will have the better league 36 to 60 months from now.  If the arrogance of the USHL and NAHL continues, and its been widely discussed here, then the USPHL will overtake both within that time frame. 


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#55 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 08:52 PM



Was in NY for the 14-15 season last.  Called the Atlantic Challenge.  Ceased because the owners in Muskegon who hosted at their Long Island arena went bankrupt.  The USHL and NAHL are extremely active in scouting out east, the rosters prove it.  The NTDP roster proves it too.

 

Rico, I see more USHL games than most people.  We publish more stories on how good the league is and have it rated evenly with the OHL now.  But I am not drinking the koolaide for any league. 

 

If you research the USPHL, you will see they don't need to sell a single ticket.  The "tax" on players to make the free to play division will be about $100 per year for AAA players.  This organization has 144 teams in it.  This isn't some start up, or some group of rookies.  The Flyers are owned by the NHL Flyers.  The Islanders have investors within the NHL Islanders.  The Bruins have Bruins money behind them.

 

Think what you want.  Fans don't get players to the NHL.  Fans and arena sizes don't get any players to the NCAA.  Scouts don't care how many fans any team gets except their own.  A 6000 seat arena isn't a bragging point when you have 600 people in it.

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products.  Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP. 

 

As for the tryout money, I know 6 NAHL teams alone that would fold if that money takes a dip by 10% from last season.  I am aware of 3 NAHL teams for sale now, and 2 USHL teams that aren't exactly in a good position.  Why is that?  It certainly isn't because they are flush with cash. 

 

This isn't a discussion of who has the better league now.  Its a discussion over what is the better business model, and who will have the better league 36 to 60 months from now.  If the arrogance of the USHL and NAHL continues, and its been widely discussed here, then the USPHL will overtake both within that time frame. 

 

 

And this is what I'll watch closely.   It will be a first if a league can survive with little to no ticket sales or sponsorships.  Talk all you want about 6,000 seat arenas and how many aren't there.  No world class league I'm aware of survived in 250 seat arenas with 50 people in it..... We'll see soon enough   ........... Again I'll look to see if a Vladar, Tolvanen or Svechnikov travel over a few oceans to play in this league. 


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#56 minor life

 

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:47 AM

This years commitments from a Tier III league http://www.usphl.com/collegecommits  I am not saying it is the best junior hockey now.  What I am saying is that their business model makes a lot more sense than the USHL and NAHL.  I am also saying that because of geography alone, they will keep more players at home, and will eventually overtake many USHL and NAHL programs in recruiting simply due to the schools in their footprint. 

 

I went through the USHL and NAHL rosters.  If you do the same, I think you will be surprised at how many eastern kids are on them.  I think you will be surprised to see how many eastern kids came through the USPHL system.  Same with the NTDP roster.

 

The problem here is that this was political.  It was about control.  The USHL and NAHL made a public statement with their actions and said they don't care about anything other than their own agenda.  ITs either their way or the highway.  USA Hockey did the same thing with the WSHL five years ago, and now the WSHL is way better than the NA3HL.  The top WSHL teams can easily compete with the top NAHL teams.  USAH regrets the decision now.


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#57 Left Behind

 

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:08 AM

ML,
Since you are an “Advisor/Agent” (“Hockey Talent Management”) as well as the owner a Junior Hockey Website (“The Junior Hockey News”), I have a couple of questions for you.
1) As an “Advisor/Agent” would it be in your best interest, or the player you represent best interest, to try and place a player in the USAH sanctioned USHL or NAHL, or the unsanctioned USPHL?

2) Since you have in the past been deeply involved in failed hockey leagues and teams and must therefore know the importance of background vetting of ownership groups, are you aware of what vetting was done by USAH regarding the ownership groups involved in the USPHL proposal made to them?

#58 minor life

 

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 08:06 AM

First you make a statement that is untrue about my involvement in "failed leagues" any organization I have been involved with finished the season and paid all their bills.  There is no one person responsible for any league.  Thanks for making it personal though.  Easy to aim for what is presumed to be low hanging fruit.

 

To clarify, Evansville wouldn't have hockey, Bloomington wouldn't have hockey, Battle Creek wouldn't have an arena or hockey, Wisconsin Rapids River Kings would have folded, and the Dells ducks wouldn't be what they are today. Those are just four examples of teams and locations I am responsible or partly responsible for. But that story doesn't fit some peoples narrative or the other two dozen teams in USAH that I am contracted with to consult.

 

Sanctioning bodies mean nothing to agents or advisors who truly act in the best interest of his or her client.  League initials mean nothiing.  The only thing that is important is putting your client in a position for success.  Thats it.  Wins and losses play no part in the equation.  How nice the dressing room is plays no part.  How big the arena or how much fan support plays no part.  It is all about the client and what is best for his career. 

 

Example; I have a client now in western Canada.  He had 4 WHL offers to sign as a free agent 2000 DOB this summer.  He hasnt decided on the WHL or NCAA yet, so what was best for him was to play with his current organization.  What was best is putting him in a position where he is a top performer, and gets exposure to all opportunity. 

 

Lets examine what sanctioning is.....

 

Sanctioning is nothing more than providing insurance coverage when you compare USAH and AAU.  You are aware of course that NCAA hockey is not sanctioned by USAH right?  You are aware that Major Junior is not sanctioned by Hockey Canada too? 

 

Here is a brief explanation on how USAH got the "sanctioning" job.  https://en.wikipedia...rts_Act_of_1978  It also involves making rules of play.  What it does not specifically empower them to do is interfere in the lawful operation of free enterprise or to allow other free enterprise to interfere with the competitions right to operate.

 

I have been a supporter of USAH for decades.  I send players to the USHL and NAHL every year.  This is not about sanctioning unless you need to make it about sanctioning to justify your holier than thou position.  This is about what is right for the player.  More free to play opportunity is whats right for the player.  The bottom line is that USAH allowed the USHL and NAHL to keep 275 more free to play opportunities from the people that pay their bills.

 

Anyone who thinks a revolt isn't going to happen on the east coast is not educated on the east coast.  Look for more news next week.  All I will say is that the largest junior hockey organization in the country, with the most money, and control of the arenas, wont be staying at 144 teams.


Edited by minor life, 17 December 2016 - 08:12 AM.

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#59 Mr Ricochet

 

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:19 AM



This years commitments from a Tier III league http://www.usphl.com/collegecommits  I am not saying it is the best junior hockey now.  What I am saying is that their business model makes a lot more sense than the USHL and NAHL.  I am also saying that because of geography alone, they will keep more players at home, and will eventually overtake many USHL and NAHL programs in recruiting simply due to the schools in their footprint. 

 

I went through the USHL and NAHL rosters.  If you do the same, I think you will be surprised at how many eastern kids are on them.  I think you will be surprised to see how many eastern kids came through the USPHL system.  Same with the NTDP roster.

 

The problem here is that this was political.  It was about control.  The USHL and NAHL made a public statement with their actions and said they don't care about anything other than their own agenda.  ITs either their way or the highway.  USA Hockey did the same thing with the WSHL five years ago, and now the WSHL is way better than the NA3HL.  The top WSHL teams can easily compete with the top NAHL teams.  USAH regrets the decision now.

 

And it doesn't have to be, and no league was, the best hockey right away.  The USHL has come leaps and bounds in all areas since they went Tier 1.  .........As I mentioned if this USPHL thingy's business model of attracting world class GM's, evaluators, coaches and players in 250 seat arenas with little to no ticket sales or sponsorships they will have discovered the fountain of youth, reinvented the wheel if you will. 

 

Politics?  Not a possible way I could care less and will let guys like you try and get a grasp on the hows and whys.  My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume.   .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.


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#60 Left Behind

 

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:57 AM

ML,

Nothing personal at all! Having spent many years in the hockey world, as well as the legal profession in both Canada and the States, I’m just well aware of the pitfalls for players and parents when it comes a lack of serious vetting concerning league proposals as well all the trappings surrounding the various aspects of the hockey world.

I agree with Rico when he states;

“My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume. .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.”

I am an advocate of full disclosure, and I must tell you that I agree with you that both HC and USAH aren’t, in several ways.

I’m still wondering how you feel the Berg v. Canadian Hockey League case might force many changes to all leagues in both Canada and the States whether the league is sanctioned by USAH or not?



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