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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

Rico, these guys are billionaires. They own the rinks they play out of. These guys have more money than USA Hockey has. Several NHL people involved with USPHL, several influential people.

 

The USHL and NAHL know that NCAA scouting budgets are being cut. With more than half the NCAA programs located in the USPHL footprint, that means high visibility with lower travel costs.

 

The business model for the NAHL and USHL has proven to be a money loser. Not a break even. Lets see how many teams fold or move this summer and next.

 

Do you want to move to a city and play in Cedar Rapids or Bloomington? Or do you want to play in Boston? Why would the USHL have showcases on the east coast if they didn't understand the value of those markets and the players in them? Why would the NAHL be so desperate to expand into the East? Because they know what is coming.

 

Too many people are over valuing the lure of the USHL and NAHL. In the east they are just another set of initials, and the majority of kids that left, only left because it was free to play. The lure is not the level of play and it is definitely not the exposure the USHL and NAHL provide. It was only because it was free to play. The USHL and NAHL lose their only advantage with the USPHL having a free to play division.

 

The USHL and NAHL now also have no idea what the competition is doing. They wont have to operate under the same rules. Wont have to abide by compensation rules, or import restrictions.

 

The official reasons for the denial are that the USPHL had 11 teams, when Tier II calls for 12 teams after the NAHL changed the rule from 8 teams this summer. Why did they change the rule? Because they knew the USPHL was coming. The second official reason was because they USPHL wanted to play 50 regular season games. The NAHL changed that rule to 60 this summer as well because they knew what was coming.

 

Lets all take a step back and look at what this is. It is a power struggle over tryout money. That's it. Without all the massive tryout camps with 200 players per camp, the USHL and NAHL business models fail even more. With more competition is larger population markets, those tryout numbers get diluted.

 

With players and parents figuring out these tryout camps are really just a scam and less than three percent of the players attending an open camp ever make a team, you have trouble in the consumer marketplace.

 

The powers that be are afraid of competition. They should be, and now they just pissed the competition off. Dumbest move in USA Hockey recent history.

 

 

I'll leave this alone as it can go on for 75 pages. You're dug in a few feet deep and that's more than fine. We'll see if the rec arena league attracts kids and scouts. Bottom line. If they don't and a kid had the skills to play USHL but doesn't he stunted his own growth, period.

 

Kids don't leave for the USHL cuz the competition is so good but do cuz it's free? Cmon, ML...... I don't want a kid who doesn't look to play at the highest level.

 

No import restrictions? A Vladar is gonna leave the Czech Republic to play in the USPHL thingy? Boston is gonna want (allow) him to play there. Any European listed on central scouting is gonna choose the rec rink league over the USHL, or NAHL? ....No ML, the import restrictions are less than relevant. ..........All these Euro goalies boxed out of Major Junior are gonna flock to the rec arena league instead of where they're going now, the USHL?

 

The Steel have a billionaire owner and they play in a nice rec rink. All kinds of NHL types are parts of USHL ownership groups, why does the new league have an advantage there?

 

Guess my head is in the sand.

 

And the tryout money. All leagues do it but the difference is the new league will have a much lower level of competition than the USHL. So your 500 bucks gets you where you belong if you make it.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

They have also done events in NY. All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you.

 

ML, you been to a USHL game lately. That's the koolaid every elite player that doesn't want to play Major Junior drinks along with NHL scouts and GM's. Have you looked to see how many USHL players are being drafted?

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Maiden    2
Maiden

They have also done events in NY. All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you.

 

Pardon my ignorance but how long ago was that?

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minor life    2
minor life

Was in NY for the 14-15 season last. Called the Atlantic Challenge. Ceased because the owners in Muskegon who hosted at their Long Island arena went bankrupt. The USHL and NAHL are extremely active in scouting out east, the rosters prove it. The NTDP roster proves it too.

 

Rico, I see more USHL games than most people. We publish more stories on how good the league is and have it rated evenly with the OHL now. But I am not drinking the koolaide for any league.

 

If you research the USPHL, you will see they don't need to sell a single ticket. The "tax" on players to make the free to play division will be about $100 per year for AAA players. This organization has 144 teams in it. This isn't some start up, or some group of rookies. The Flyers are owned by the NHL Flyers. The Islanders have investors within the NHL Islanders. The Bruins have Bruins money behind them.

 

Think what you want. Fans don't get players to the NHL. Fans and arena sizes don't get any players to the NCAA. Scouts don't care how many fans any team gets except their own. A 6000 seat arena isn't a bragging point when you have 600 people in it.

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products. Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP.

 

As for the tryout money, I know 6 NAHL teams alone that would fold if that money takes a dip by 10% from last season. I am aware of 3 NAHL teams for sale now, and 2 USHL teams that aren't exactly in a good position. Why is that? It certainly isn't because they are flush with cash.

 

This isn't a discussion of who has the better league now. Its a discussion over what is the better business model, and who will have the better league 36 to 60 months from now. If the arrogance of the USHL and NAHL continues, and its been widely discussed here, then the USPHL will overtake both within that time frame.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

Was in NY for the 14-15 season last. Called the Atlantic Challenge. Ceased because the owners in Muskegon who hosted at their Long Island arena went bankrupt. The USHL and NAHL are extremely active in scouting out east, the rosters prove it. The NTDP roster proves it too.

 

Rico, I see more USHL games than most people. We publish more stories on how good the league is and have it rated evenly with the OHL now. But I am not drinking the koolaide for any league.

 

If you research the USPHL, you will see they don't need to sell a single ticket. The "tax" on players to make the free to play division will be about $100 per year for AAA players. This organization has 144 teams in it. This isn't some start up, or some group of rookies. The Flyers are owned by the NHL Flyers. The Islanders have investors within the NHL Islanders. The Bruins have Bruins money behind them.

 

Think what you want. Fans don't get players to the NHL. Fans and arena sizes don't get any players to the NCAA. Scouts don't care how many fans any team gets except their own. A 6000 seat arena isn't a bragging point when you have 600 people in it.

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products. Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP.

 

As for the tryout money, I know 6 NAHL teams alone that would fold if that money takes a dip by 10% from last season. I am aware of 3 NAHL teams for sale now, and 2 USHL teams that aren't exactly in a good position. Why is that? It certainly isn't because they are flush with cash.

 

This isn't a discussion of who has the better league now. Its a discussion over what is the better business model, and who will have the better league 36 to 60 months from now. If the arrogance of the USHL and NAHL continues, and its been widely discussed here, then the USPHL will overtake both within that time frame.

 

 

And this is what I'll watch closely. It will be a first if a league can survive with little to no ticket sales or sponsorships. Talk all you want about 6,000 seat arenas and how many aren't there. No world class league I'm aware of survived in 250 seat arenas with 50 people in it..... We'll see soon enough ........... Again I'll look to see if a Vladar, Tolvanen or Svechnikov travel over a few oceans to play in this league.

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minor life    2
minor life

This years commitments from a Tier III league http://www.usphl.com/collegecommits I am not saying it is the best junior hockey now. What I am saying is that their business model makes a lot more sense than the USHL and NAHL. I am also saying that because of geography alone, they will keep more players at home, and will eventually overtake many USHL and NAHL programs in recruiting simply due to the schools in their footprint.

 

I went through the USHL and NAHL rosters. If you do the same, I think you will be surprised at how many eastern kids are on them. I think you will be surprised to see how many eastern kids came through the USPHL system. Same with the NTDP roster.

 

The problem here is that this was political. It was about control. The USHL and NAHL made a public statement with their actions and said they don't care about anything other than their own agenda. ITs either their way or the highway. USA Hockey did the same thing with the WSHL five years ago, and now the WSHL is way better than the NA3HL. The top WSHL teams can easily compete with the top NAHL teams. USAH regrets the decision now.

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

ML,

Since you are an “Advisor/Agent” (“Hockey Talent Management”) as well as the owner a Junior Hockey Website (“The Junior Hockey News”), I have a couple of questions for you.

1) As an “Advisor/Agent” would it be in your best interest, or the player you represent best interest, to try and place a player in the USAH sanctioned USHL or NAHL, or the unsanctioned USPHL?

 

2) Since you have in the past been deeply involved in failed hockey leagues and teams and must therefore know the importance of background vetting of ownership groups, are you aware of what vetting was done by USAH regarding the ownership groups involved in the USPHL proposal made to them?

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minor life    2
minor life

First you make a statement that is untrue about my involvement in "failed leagues" any organization I have been involved with finished the season and paid all their bills. There is no one person responsible for any league. Thanks for making it personal though. Easy to aim for what is presumed to be low hanging fruit.

 

To clarify, Evansville wouldn't have hockey, Bloomington wouldn't have hockey, Battle Creek wouldn't have an arena or hockey, Wisconsin Rapids River Kings would have folded, and the Dells ducks wouldn't be what they are today. Those are just four examples of teams and locations I am responsible or partly responsible for. But that story doesn't fit some peoples narrative or the other two dozen teams in USAH that I am contracted with to consult.

 

Sanctioning bodies mean nothing to agents or advisors who truly act in the best interest of his or her client. League initials mean nothiing. The only thing that is important is putting your client in a position for success. Thats it. Wins and losses play no part in the equation. How nice the dressing room is plays no part. How big the arena or how much fan support plays no part. It is all about the client and what is best for his career.

 

Example; I have a client now in western Canada. He had 4 WHL offers to sign as a free agent 2000 DOB this summer. He hasnt decided on the WHL or NCAA yet, so what was best for him was to play with his current organization. What was best is putting him in a position where he is a top performer, and gets exposure to all opportunity.

 

Lets examine what sanctioning is.....

 

Sanctioning is nothing more than providing insurance coverage when you compare USAH and AAU. You are aware of course that NCAA hockey is not sanctioned by USAH right? You are aware that Major Junior is not sanctioned by Hockey Canada too?

 

Here is a brief explanation on how USAH got the "sanctioning" job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_Sports_Act_of_1978 It also involves making rules of play. What it does not specifically empower them to do is interfere in the lawful operation of free enterprise or to allow other free enterprise to interfere with the competitions right to operate.

 

I have been a supporter of USAH for decades. I send players to the USHL and NAHL every year. This is not about sanctioning unless you need to make it about sanctioning to justify your holier than thou position. This is about what is right for the player. More free to play opportunity is whats right for the player. The bottom line is that USAH allowed the USHL and NAHL to keep 275 more free to play opportunities from the people that pay their bills.

 

Anyone who thinks a revolt isn't going to happen on the east coast is not educated on the east coast. Look for more news next week. All I will say is that the largest junior hockey organization in the country, with the most money, and control of the arenas, wont be staying at 144 teams.

Edited by minor life

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

This years commitments from a Tier III league http://www.usphl.com/collegecommits I am not saying it is the best junior hockey now. What I am saying is that their business model makes a lot more sense than the USHL and NAHL. I am also saying that because of geography alone, they will keep more players at home, and will eventually overtake many USHL and NAHL programs in recruiting simply due to the schools in their footprint.

 

I went through the USHL and NAHL rosters. If you do the same, I think you will be surprised at how many eastern kids are on them. I think you will be surprised to see how many eastern kids came through the USPHL system. Same with the NTDP roster.

 

The problem here is that this was political. It was about control. The USHL and NAHL made a public statement with their actions and said they don't care about anything other than their own agenda. ITs either their way or the highway. USA Hockey did the same thing with the WSHL five years ago, and now the WSHL is way better than the NA3HL. The top WSHL teams can easily compete with the top NAHL teams. USAH regrets the decision now.

 

And it doesn't have to be, and no league was, the best hockey right away. The USHL has come leaps and bounds in all areas since they went Tier 1. .........As I mentioned if this USPHL thingy's business model of attracting world class GM's, evaluators, coaches and players in 250 seat arenas with little to no ticket sales or sponsorships they will have discovered the fountain of youth, reinvented the wheel if you will.

 

Politics? Not a possible way I could care less and will let guys like you try and get a grasp on the hows and whys. My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume. .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

ML,

 

Nothing personal at all! Having spent many years in the hockey world, as well as the legal profession in both Canada and the States, I’m just well aware of the pitfalls for players and parents when it comes a lack of serious vetting concerning league proposals as well all the trappings surrounding the various aspects of the hockey world.

 

I agree with Rico when he states;

 

“My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume. .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.”

 

I am an advocate of full disclosure, and I must tell you that I agree with you that both HC and USAH aren’t, in several ways.

 

I’m still wondering how you feel the Berg v. Canadian Hockey League case might force many changes to all leagues in both Canada and the States whether the league is sanctioned by USAH or not?

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DM47    0
DM47

 

I don't want a kid who doesn't look to play at the highest level.

 

I agree I want kinds that want competition and want to improve on my team but this is already being allowed in the USHL by all the kids that are now before and afters. Fargo has a history of allowing kids to leave the team and go play high school then come back when the season is over. Phil Beaulieu, Dixon Bowen, Riley Tufte, Michael Graham and I am guessing this year it will be Ben Meyers. Casey Middelstadt for Green Bay this season. These kids are going to choose to stay home over the USHL and probably not play in the USHL at all if they have to choose between the 2. I don't expect kids from the east coast that have the opportunity to play close to home to choose any differently. I don't think playing against lesser competition makes anyone better but they choose it anyway.

 

 

This years commitments from a Tier III league http://www.usphl.com/collegecommits I am not saying it is the best junior hockey now. What I am saying is that their business model makes a lot more sense than the USHL and NAHL.

 

They are right in the footprint of a lot of schools, they get kids scholarships and some get drafted already. Being able to attract more talent by being free to play will only help this.

 

 

I don't know this will all turn out but I see this being tough on the USHL and especially the NAHL for a few year until they figure out how to make the balance work. I do believe there are getting to be more and more talented kids out there and more dedicated to developing their hockey skills so I am glad to see more opportunities for these kids. I am in hope more colleges will soon add hockey, especially on the west coast, to give these kids more opportunities. As budget cuts seem to be the word around most colleges lately I don't foresee that happening. But I do hope this happens to expand all opportunities for these kids to be able to succeed.

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TheShow    0
TheShow

 

 

I don't want a kid who doesn't look to play at the highest level.

 

I agree I want kinds that want competition and want to improve on my team but this is already being allowed in the USHL by all the kids that are now before and afters. Fargo has a history of allowing kids to leave the team and go play high school then come back when the season is over. Phil Beaulieu, Dixon Bowen, Riley Tufte, Michael Graham and I am guessing this year it will be Ben Meyers. Casey Middelstadt for Green Bay this season. These kids are going to choose to stay home over the USHL and probably not play in the USHL at all if they have to choose between the 2. I don't expect kids from the east coast that have the opportunity to play close to home to choose any differently. I don't think playing against lesser competition makes anyone better but they choose it anyway.

 

 

 

 

I

 

Hey, it works for some players. Two-Left-Feet Tanner Lane put up Nintendo numbers in high school and got exposed so badly in the USHL/college, but he ended up getting drafted because of it.

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DM47    0
DM47

 

 

 

I don't want a kid who doesn't look to play at the highest level.

 

I agree I want kinds that want competition and want to improve on my team but this is already being allowed in the USHL by all the kids that are now before and afters. Fargo has a history of allowing kids to leave the team and go play high school then come back when the season is over. Phil Beaulieu, Dixon Bowen, Riley Tufte, Michael Graham and I am guessing this year it will be Ben Meyers. Casey Middelstadt for Green Bay this season. These kids are going to choose to stay home over the USHL and probably not play in the USHL at all if they have to choose between the 2. I don't expect kids from the east coast that have the opportunity to play close to home to choose any differently. I don't think playing against lesser competition makes anyone better but they choose it anyway.

 

 

 

 

I

 

Hey, it works for some players. Two-Left-Feet Tanner Lane put up Nintendo numbers in high school and got exposed so badly in the USHL/college, but he ended up getting drafted because of it.

 

 

Seems to be working for Ben Meyers. Only played one game in Fargo but so far at Delano he has 28 points in 5 games.

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minor life    2
minor life

ML,

 

Nothing personal at all! Having spent many years in the hockey world, as well as the legal profession in both Canada and the States, I’m just well aware of the pitfalls for players and parents when it comes a lack of serious vetting concerning league proposals as well all the trappings surrounding the various aspects of the hockey world.

 

I agree with Rico when he states;

 

“My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume. .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.”

 

I am an advocate of full disclosure, and I must tell you that I agree with you that both HC and USAH aren’t, in several ways.

 

I’m still wondering how you feel the Berg v. Canadian Hockey League case might force many changes to all leagues in both Canada and the States whether the league is sanctioned by USAH or not?

 

My feelings on the Berg suit are mixed honestly. I think changes will come though. I do know the CHL is very concerned, and rightly so. I will say this much. The only reason anyone lobbies for any legal change is usually because they know they are operating outside of or need to operate outside of the existing law in order to further their agenda.

 

I also know one Major Junior league that has created a very detailed emergency plan. The expectation is that the teams in the US may be the ones effected the soonest, for several reasons.

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DM47    0
DM47

 

 

ML,

 

Nothing personal at all! Having spent many years in the hockey world, as well as the legal profession in both Canada and the States, Im just well aware of the pitfalls for players and parents when it comes a lack of serious vetting concerning league proposals as well all the trappings surrounding the various aspects of the hockey world.

 

I agree with Rico when he states;

 

My hope is and always will be the kids end up winners and the fan gets the best hockey to consume. .........I've also seen leagues bankrupt each other fighting over finite resources and ruin the whole thing for the player and fan.

 

I am an advocate of full disclosure, and I must tell you that I agree with you that both HC and USAH arent, in several ways.

 

Im still wondering how you feel the Berg v. Canadian Hockey League case might force many changes to all leagues in both Canada and the States whether the league is sanctioned by USAH or not?

My feelings on the Berg suit are mixed honestly. I think changes will come though. I do know the CHL is very concerned, and rightly so. I will say this much. The only reason anyone lobbies for any legal change is usually because they know they are operating outside of or need to operate outside of the existing law in order to further their agenda.

 

I also know one Major Junior league that has created a very detailed emergency plan. The expectation is that the teams in the US may be the ones effected the soonest, for several reasons.

How will this effect US hockey? They are not paid athletes in the US, just like any high school or University. I know these hockey teams are for profit but a lot of University's are for profit and not state run institutes.

 

Would it make a difference if these were not play for free leagues and they had to pay to play?

 

Just asking as I don't know. This lawsuit is about them being paid but not getting minimum wage and benefits.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

 

 

I also know one Major Junior league that has created a very detailed emergency plan. The expectation is that the teams in the US may be the ones effected the soonest, for several reasons.

How will this effect US hockey? They are not paid athletes in the US, just like any high school or University. I know these hockey teams are for profit but a lot of University's are for profit and not state run institutes.

 

Would it make a difference if these were not play for free leagues and they had to pay to play?

 

Just asking as I don't know. This lawsuit is about them being paid but not getting minimum wage and benefits.

 

 

 

I think the contact sports in the NCAA are thinking they may have to provide for those injured long term. ..... Things are bound to change in Major Junior and NCAA. The NCAA seemingly has pockets with no bottom but some Major Junior clubs would be hurt if they had to pay their kids and provide real college tuition without the 2,792 outs they have now.

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

ML,

 

They all have a detailed plan, whether those plans will fly or not is another question. As far as the WHL is concerned the Washington State Government passed a law after much pressure from Seattle, Everett, Spokane, and Tri-Cities. But because it is a national labor issue the concern is it could be overturned by the Federal Government. Oregon is still kind of up in the air as to whether or not minimum wage applies to MJ Players. The problem for teams is that both States have real high minimum wage laws.

 

DM47,

 

The lawsuit isn't entirely about minimum wage, it is also about treatment which could include many things. As far as University is concerned the new NCAA rules allow players to receive a "stipend". As far as how is might affect if at all the non-CHL teams in the States no one knows but it is a concern.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

ML,

 

They all have a detailed plan, whether those plans will fly or not is another question. As far as the WHL is concerned the Washington State Government passed a law after much pressure from Seattle, Everett, Spokane, and Tri-Cities. But because it is a national labor issue the concern is it could be overturned by the Federal Government. Oregon is still kind of up in the air as to whether or not minimum wage applies to MJ Players. The problem for teams is that both States have real high minimum wage laws.

 

DM47,

 

The lawsuit isn't entirely about minimum wage, it is also about treatment which could include many things. As far as University is concerned the new NCAA rules allow players to receive a "stipend". As far as how is might affect if at all the non-CHL teams in the States no one knows but it is a concern.

 

 

I don't think the Federal gumment can come in with their anti labor Labor Secretary, under the new regime, and overturn a law. That will happen at the appeals court level or all the way to the Roberts Supreme Court. If it gets to Roberts good bet the factory owners will squash the factory worker.

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Canarse    2
Canarse

 

They have also done events in NY. All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you.

 

ML, you been to a USHL game lately. That's the koolaid every elite player that doesn't want to play Major Junior drinks along with NHL scouts and GM's. Have you looked to see how many USHL players are being drafted?

 

 

As a parent of a USHL affiliate on the east coast I have to agree with Rico. The kids aren't necessarily about free or where they live. They want to get better so they can play in college and the pros. This is far and away their #1 motivation. As long as the USHL is the league with the top competition and coaching that's where most will want to go. Obviously that could change, but most east coast players desperately want to be in the USHL.

 

The NHL has separate scouts in the midwest and east coast. They would be glad to scout the USPHL, but why would they? The vast majority of kids on the premier teams are far older than 18. Take a look at the NJ Hitmen's, consistently one of the best teams in the league, roster. http://www.usphl.com/roster/show/2567083?subseason=302144 Loaded with '96s and '97s. Unless this new iteration of the USPHL becomes more of a development league it will stay second fiddle to the USHL which has the vast majority of 17, 18 and 19 year olds heading to play college hockey in the US.

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Canarse    2
Canarse

 

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products. Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP.

 

 

 

You say you aren't in the bag for any league, but why do you repeat this drivel? Jack Eichel played three games, count 'em 3, with the Jr. Bruins when they were a EJHL team. At least Jimmy Vesey played an entire season for the South Shore Kings in the old EJ. Neither ever played in the USPHL. It didn't exist.

Edited by Canarse

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Bevalaqua    0
Bevalaqua

As a parent of a USHL player from the East, I agree with much of what Canarse says. My son knows kids in the NAHL who are just dying to get into the USHL. I don't think the USPHL will have any affect on the USHL, but I think it has potential to be a good option. After all, the USHL is 17 teams of future D1 players. Last time I checked, there were 60 D1 programs, so the schools need to look elsewhere to fill their rosters. There's room for good junior hockey leagues

Edited by Bevalaqua

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

 

 

They have also done events in NY. All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you.

 

ML, you been to a USHL game lately. That's the koolaid every elite player that doesn't want to play Major Junior drinks along with NHL scouts and GM's. Have you looked to see how many USHL players are being drafted?

 

 

As a parent of a USHL affiliate on the east coast I have to agree with Rico. The kids aren't necessarily about free or where they live. They want to get better so they can play in college and the pros. This is far and away their #1 motivation. As long as the USHL is the league with the top competition and coaching that's where most will want to go. Obviously that could change, but most east coast players desperately want to be in the USHL.

 

The NHL has separate scouts in the midwest and east coast. They would be glad to scout the USPHL, but why would they? The vast majority of kids on the premier teams are far older than 18. Take a look at the NJ Hitmen's, consistently one of the best teams in the league, roster. http://www.usphl.com/roster/show/2567083?subseason=302144 Loaded with '96s and '97s. Unless this new iteration of the USPHL becomes more of a development league it will stay second fiddle to the USHL which has the vast majority of 17, 18 and 19 year olds heading to play college hockey in the US.

 

 

Really good post Canarse and congrats on your boy affiliated with the USHL. No small feat!!

 

If a person has elite talent in anything he/she wants to play and beat the best. Even if you are a dart thrower or pool shooter and dominate your hood you seek out better players. Beating up on inferior competition in anything loses its luster. And if it's a sport like hockey you realize it stunts your growth playing big fish in a small pond and IMO if a talented kid shows fear of moving "up" that's a red flag to me........ I will add a caveat that I've been told more than a few times a kid was badly homesick. It's a very real thing for some 16-17 yr old kids, children for Christ sakes.

 

I did not know the USHPL was an older league. Do they have limits on overagers?

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

As a parent of a USHL player from the East, I agree with much of what Canarse says. My son knows kids in the NAHL who are just dying to get into the USHL. I don't think the USPHL will have any affect on the USHL, but I think it has potential to be a good option. After all, the USHL is 17 teams of future D1 players. Last time I checked, there were 60 D1 programs, so the schools need to look elsewhere to fill their rosters. There's room for good junior hockey leagues

 

Again, congrats on your boy making it to the USHL.

 

Sure an NAHL kid wants to play USHL. If he's talented enough to play NAHL he's very good and has the desire to get to the top, and at this age that's the USHL.

 

The way ML paints this picture of funding this new league intrigues me. Will be interesting if a way can be found to not have a 1.5 or 2 mil budget for high end Junior hockey. I personally don't see it working but am very interested to see if it works. And options for kids and their parents is never a bad thing.

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Canarse    2
Canarse

I do agree with ML about finances and the business model. That's what the USPHL is all about. The model has teams at many levels. The big teams with deep pockets have three levels of juniors. Premier, Elite and USP3HL. They also have youth hockey organizations. Since they also own rinks they can be the 300lb gorilla in their local area. So, the business model is good, but is it good for the kids? I guess it depends upon who is running the show and how much they care about development as opposed to the almighty dollar.

 

In my opinion the USPHL is a mixed bag. There are some good organizations and then there are those that are in it for little but the money. The USPHL is as guilty as any organization for the over proliferation of pay to play hockey. The USP3HL teams can be really bad hockey. Significantly worse than good U18 hockey. If parents on these teams are aware of what kind of hockey this actually is, that's OK by me. If a kid wants the junior experience and the parents are willing to pay, great. But far too often these teams are "selling the dream." Getting parents to believe they can get their kid to D1 or even D3 when they have absolutely no shot. All about making the almighty dollar and supporting the Premier teams that don't draw squat.

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minor life    2
minor life

 

 

 

Jack Eichel and Jimmy Vesey are two of the latest who are USPHL products. Vesey didn't leave and Eichel left for the NTDP.

 

 

 

You say you aren't in the bag for any league, but why do you repeat this drivel? Jack Eichel played three games, count 'em 3, with the Jr. Bruins when they were a EJHL team. At least Jimmy Vesey played an entire season for the South Shore Kings in the old EJ. Neither ever played in the USPHL. It didn't exist.

 

Canarse, the league label changing really doesn't matter. I am well aware of the history out east. If you read, listen to, or watch interviews with wither of these players, they credit people specifically within those organizations with being critical to their dev elopement. No, I am not in for any league. I am in it for the players.

 

There are good teams and bad teams in every league. Some USHL teams would lose to NAHL teams. Some NAHL teams would lose to Tier III teams from the USPHL and EHL, and NA3HL. Just because a league has a label does not mean every organization is the standard bearer for the quality of that label. There are some teams in the USHL and NAHL people are dying to get away from.

 

Players, parents and fans alike get sold on great marketing. The Kenai River Brown Bears are in the NAHL and the North East Generals are in the NAHL, if you see them play you sure wouldn't think they could beat a good Midget team. If you think Madison or Cedar Rapids would handily beat the Islanders or Hitmen, you haven't watched much hockey.

 

So lets level the playing field. Lets add free to play out east. Lets force the NAHL and USPHL on even free to play footing to play for a National Championship every year. That is what was going to happen. Why would the NAHL not want it to happen? I am for better or worse well acquainted with the men in the room and the why's and hows of what happened.

 

I am happy for the USHL parents that have their children on AP cards. That's great, congratulations. You have free to play hockey in your future if everything works out that way you hope it will. But what if it doesn't? Wouldn't it be nice to know there were another 275 free to play opportunities waiting just in case your child got caught in a numbers situation, or just wasn't ready yet?

 

The argument, the discussion is NOT over quality of hockey. The argument and discussion is about the DENIAL of more FREE hockey to those parents and players who could have taken advantage of it. That denial of opportunity is contrary to every pillar that the USA Hockey Junior Council is built upon.

 

All the noise about USPHL making money and no one talks about all the NAHL teams that own NA3HL teams and gouging players? Or how about the NAPHL? Really there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. How about some USHL owners also owning WSHL pay to play teams outside of USA Hockey? Anyone want to discuss that? There are layers to teams all over the place. No one is in the USHL or NAHL for strictly philanthropic reasons.

 

Lets keep the discussion honest. Lets talk about why this happened, and what happens next.

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