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DM47

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

 

Latest on TJHN now. If you read the end of this article properly, you will know whats coming next....

ML, I have read several of your articles. You may be right about what is next. What I do have to question is how you say USA Hockey runs the NDTP by taxing the members. Here is a quote from one of your articles.

 

"Millions of dollars are spent on less than 60 players. How many millions? Well that’s not easy to figure out based on USA Hockey financial records. But it is at least THREE MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR.

 

Three million dollars per year spent on less than 60 players is more than FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR PER PLAYER."

 

From what I can gather from USA Hockey financials it's not that hard to see how much they spend on the NTDP. Link: http://www.usahockey.com/page/show/837015-financials According to the 2015 audited financial statements USA Hockey spent $3.9M on the NTDP. It is also in the statement that the NHL provided over $9M to USA Hockey specifically for the NTDP, junior officiating, ADM, USHL and College Hockey, Inc. (see note O)

 

I'm not a big fan of USA Hockey either, but to leave out this information paints a much different picture of how the NTDP is financed than what is true. USA Hockey deserves criticism for a lot of things, but how they pay for the NTDP isn't one of them.

 

Maybe USAH was afraid it would end up like the IIHL ?

 

 

International Independent Hockey League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Independent_Hockey_League

 

 

 

Lansing Ice Nuts (11-1)

Motor City Snipers (0-2)

Northern Michigan Predators (4-4)

Ohio Valley Ice Cats (0-4)

Soo City Mavericks (1-5)

Tri-State Hurricanes - never played a league game

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kolodziej

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Michigan_Predators

http://www.truenorthradionetwork.com/index.php/2010/04/16/criminal-history-of-investor-puts-brakes-on-new-hockey-team-at-nla/

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

 

The EJHL no longer exists. The EHL which is no where close to what the EJHL was exists, but not for long.

 

The EJHL was no question a better league than the NAHL 5 to 7 years ago. The NAHL has only made these tremendous strides in the last 3 to 5 years.

 

One third of the USHL leading scorers come from the USPHL's territory. If the USPHL has free to play, I make a sizable bet that those players do not go to the USHL.

 

9 members of the NTDP U-18 team from USPHL territory, many from USPHL programs. 10 members of the U-17 team from USPHL territory, many from USPHL programs.

 

The NAHL lit the fuse to this fight by going out east with the NA3 and then the NAHL. The USPHL pissed the USHL off with their rebranding from the EJHL to USPHL because it is a similar name to USHL. The USHL didn't trademark their name, or begin the process to trademark the name until after the USPHL announced so there was nothing they could do and they are still upset about it.

 

Some people think I am way off on this. Its ok, those same people thought I was way off on the IHL merging with the CHL. Some people thought I was way off with the CHL merging with the ECHL too. My next prediction.......NAHL and NA3HL will be decimated on the east coast within 24 months. If the USPHL goes with AAU, they will spread across the country quicker than anyone can imagine and in very short order USA Hockey will be a youth hockey organization and maybe have a small group of junior hockey.

Interesting! If USAH becomes nothing more than youth hockey who does the IIHF recognize, AAU?

 

 

To say this is interesting is an understatement. Great question about the IIHF and another IMO is where does the NHL throw it's 8 mil development money per year? Safe to say whoever gets both is the winner?

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

The EJHL no longer exists. The EHL which is no where close to what the EJHL was exists, but not for long.

 

The EJHL was no question a better league than the NAHL 5 to 7 years ago. The NAHL has only made these tremendous strides in the last 3 to 5 years.

 

One third of the USHL leading scorers come from the USPHL's territory. If the USPHL has free to play, I make a sizable bet that those players do not go to the USHL.

 

9 members of the NTDP U-18 team from USPHL territory, many from USPHL programs. 10 members of the U-17 team from USPHL territory, many from USPHL programs.

 

The NAHL lit the fuse to this fight by going out east with the NA3 and then the NAHL. The USPHL pissed the USHL off with their rebranding from the EJHL to USPHL because it is a similar name to USHL. The USHL didn't trademark their name, or begin the process to trademark the name until after the USPHL announced so there was nothing they could do and they are still upset about it.

 

Some people think I am way off on this. Its ok, those same people thought I was way off on the IHL merging with the CHL. Some people thought I was way off with the CHL merging with the ECHL too. My next prediction.......NAHL and NA3HL will be decimated on the east coast within 24 months. If the USPHL goes with AAU, they will spread across the country quicker than anyone can imagine and in very short order USA Hockey will be a youth hockey organization and maybe have a small group of junior hockey.

 

 

ML, I'm Jacob Trouba or Jack Eichel and will be 16 yrs old in 2 years. Do I stay home and play USPHL or go with USAH and play Sveeeeeden, Finland and the Cossacks next month? If I'm those guys do I even need to ask where the scouts will be?

 

Clue me in on USPHL arenas. Will they support enough paying customers to support a Montgomery or Cooper's salary not to mention the assistants, scouts, hockey ops guys and management types? Don't you always drill me that to successfully run a Tier 1 operation you need 2.5ish mil a year? ........... Can the USPHL do any of this, enough to supplant the USHL?

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minor life    2
minor life

NTDP finances are clouded and not solely supported by the NHL money. The 9 million was over 3 years I believe. If they spent close to 4 million last year, they only have 5 for the next two and the numbers don't add up.

 

The whole point to the articles is simple. USAH denied players 275 new free to play opportunities. It was done in a back room deal with the NAHL and USHL. That is simply not good for hockey, and is not what they are paid to do by all the paying members.

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Canarse    2
Canarse

NTDP finances are clouded and not solely supported by the NHL money. The 9 million was over 3 years I believe. If they spent close to 4 million last year, they only have 5 for the next two and the numbers don't add up.

 

The whole point to the articles is simple. USAH denied players 275 new free to play opportunities. It was done in a back room deal with the NAHL and USHL. That is simply not good for hockey, and is not what they are paid to do by all the paying members.

 

I understand the point of the article. My point is you are leaving out important information that leaves people believing their fees are paying for the NTDP. I don't see any evidence that is true.

 

If you look at the 2014 return the NHL gave USA Hockey $8M. It was $8M in 2013 as well. I'm not sure where you are getting the $9M over three years information, but their audited financial statements say something different. Now if you believe USA Hockey is falsifying their financial statements that's a whole other matter.

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minor life    2
minor life

Canarse, I am not doing a reverse audit on financial statements. All USAH produces is their claims of expenses, those are not audited by anyone when published. Lets not confuse a statement with a "return" either. The NTDP can not be solely funded by the NHL, that would make them professional players and USAH would only be a money laundering entity then wouldn't it? Lets not forget what the NTDP is, it is not just the players on the ice. It is national selection camps, regional camps, sectional camps and so much more. It is referee training. It is consultants, USAH full time employee's, it is marketing, advertising, print media production and a whole host of other items.

 

I am neither a USAH supporter or detractor. I don't care who is the insurance carrier. What I care about, and what a tidal wave of players and parents care about it USAH blocking 275 free to play opportunities because of a deal with the NAHL and USHL. On a junior council controlled by the NAHL and USHL.

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

Canarse, I am not doing a reverse audit on financial statements. All USAH produces is their claims of expenses, those are not audited by anyone when published. Lets not confuse a statement with a "return" either. The NTDP can not be solely funded by the NHL, that would make them professional players and USAH would only be a money laundering entity then wouldn't it? Lets not forget what the NTDP is, it is not just the players on the ice. It is national selection camps, regional camps, sectional camps and so much more. It is referee training. It is consultants, USAH full time employee's, it is marketing, advertising, print media production and a whole host of other items.

 

I am neither a USAH supporter or detractor. I don't care who is the insurance carrier. What I care about, and what a tidal wave of players and parents care about it USAH blocking 275 free to play opportunities because of a deal with the NAHL and USHL. On a junior council controlled by the NAHL and USHL.

Who knows...maybe USAH did background checks on some of the people pushing for the USPHL to go Tier II and didn't like what they saw?

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.hockeynewsnorth.com/cihl/the-cihl-is-here/

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Canarse    2
Canarse

Canarse, I am not doing a reverse audit on financial statements. All USAH produces is their claims of expenses, those are not audited by anyone when published. Lets not confuse a statement with a "return" either. The NTDP can not be solely funded by the NHL, that would make them professional players and USAH would only be a money laundering entity then wouldn't it? Lets not forget what the NTDP is, it is not just the players on the ice. It is national selection camps, regional camps, sectional camps and so much more. It is referee training. It is consultants, USAH full time employee's, it is marketing, advertising, print media production and a whole host of other items.

 

I am neither a USAH supporter or detractor. I don't care who is the insurance carrier. What I care about, and what a tidal wave of players and parents care about it USAH blocking 275 free to play opportunities because of a deal with the NAHL and USHL. On a junior council controlled by the NAHL and USHL.

 

ML, it's not that hard to take a look at their audited financial statement. I provided a link in a previous post. The statements absolutely are audited by the firm Waugh & Goodman. You can look at the nonprofit US Government form 990 as well. It's right there. It will tell you where they spend their money. Salaries, etc. The form 990 does not break out donations like the $9M from the NHL. These are not claims. These are financial statements. You should take the time to look before you drag them through the mud. It doesn't require a reverse audit. Took me all of 5 minutes. http://www.usahockey.com/page/show/837015-financials

 

I do not understand how the NHL donating money to a non profit organization could make NTDP players professionals. The benefits they receive do not change. USA Hockey still runs the NTDP, not the NHL. This claim makes no sense to me.

 

I don't disagree with your opinion about USA Hockey and their decision about Tier 2. I do disagree with not taking the time to find out the truth about how USA Hockey funds the NTDP. Hard data is available. You can choose not to believe it, but then you should have some kind of facts to back up why you think they are a lie.

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minor life    2
minor life

Canarse, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think USAH was drug through the mud. If you choose to believe that USAH doesn't use money outside of the NHL money for the NTDP, that's your choice. I don't take anyone's paid for, P&L as true statement of fact. I am sure its ethical for the not for profit USAH to purchase an arena and sell ice that directly competes with ice sales from privately owned arena's too.

 

You want to change the discussion based on one opinion. Lets redirect back to what we all know to be fact. USAH just denied the people who pay all the bills 275 free to play roster spots. Why did they deny it? They denied it because of back room politics. This is after talking to people who were in the room before, during and after it happened. This isn't assumptions being made, this is facts being reported.

 

Now, lets talk about the why and the how the back room deal was made. Lets talk about who made it. Lets talk about conflicts of interest at the heart of what is the USAH Junior Council. That's what the conversation is about. Lets talk about people who are so wealthy that they have no clue what the people who actually pay the bills want. Lets talk about the rich telling the working class majority once again how the game is going to be run.

 

Now, what is USAH going to think when they lose thousands of members over night? What happens when nearly the entire East Coast disappears from the membership roles because a few Mid West operators felt they should control what the consumer receives. Will losing 3000 members hurt? What if other groups who are tired of the BS leave too? What if that number is 5000 players? What if the referee's don't sign up because they don't need to? No team registration fee's, no affiliate fee's, no need for festivals or all the other eastern revenue generators.

 

What about the USPHL spanning from coast to coast? What if after year one they prove they never needed USAH? How about the NAHL and USHL money losing business models? 1000 fans a night doesn't provide for viability of either model.

 

Sorry for the rant, but this was a stupid decision by USAH based on a conflict of interest. Now the USAH spin is starting and it makes me sick.

Edited by minor life

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Canarse    2
Canarse

Canarse, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think USAH was drug through the mud. If you choose to believe that USAH doesn't use money outside of the NHL money for the NTDP, that's your choice. I don't take anyone's paid for, P&L as true statement of fact. I am sure its ethical for the not for profit USAH to purchase an arena and sell ice that directly competes with ice sales from privately owned arena's too.

 

You want to change the discussion based on one opinion. Lets redirect back to what we all know to be fact. USAH just denied the people who pay all the bills 275 free to play roster spots. Why did they deny it? They denied it because of back room politics. This is after talking to people who were in the room before, during and after it happened. This isn't assumptions being made, this is facts being reported.

 

Now, lets talk about the why and the how the back room deal was made. Lets talk about who made it. Lets talk about conflicts of interest at the heart of what is the USAH Junior Council. That's what the conversation is about. Lets talk about people who are so wealthy that they have no clue what the people who actually pay the bills want. Lets talk about the rich telling the working class majority once again how the game is going to be run.

 

Now, what is USAH going to think when they lose thousands of members over night? What happens when nearly the entire East Coast disappears from the membership roles because a few Mid West operators felt they should control what the consumer receives. Will losing 3000 members hurt? What if other groups who are tired of the BS leave too? What if that number is 5000 players? What if the referee's don't sign up because they don't need to? No team registration fee's, no affiliate fee's, no need for festivals or all the other eastern revenue generators.

 

What about the USPHL spanning from coast to coast? What if after year one they prove they never needed USAH? How about the NAHL and USHL money losing business models? 1000 fans a night doesn't provide for viability of either model.

 

Sorry for the rant, but this was a stupid decision by USAH based on a conflict of interest. Now the USAH spin is starting and it makes me sick.

 

Again, I have no argument with your points about junior hockey. My posts have nothing to do with that issue.

 

I do have an issue with media, and your website is as close to media as it gets in junior hockey, leaving out important information. You accept the $3M number for the cost of NTDP, but not the NHL revenue figure from the same statement? Getting people all fired up about being "taxed" by USA Hockey for the NTDP without any real facts isn't right as far as I'm concerned.

 

USA Hockey selling their extra ice is as ethical as a government park or public ice arena selling ice which competes with a privately owned rink. Happens all the time.

 

Like you say, we are all entitled to our opinion, but I trust hard data a lot more than rumors or a bunch of disgruntled people coming out of a meeting. Not to say they are wrong, but not always reliable either.

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minor life    2
minor life

Our information is being confirmed by all sides of the discussion as to the details of what happened in the meeting, not just the USPHL.

 

You can be concerned, thats fine. If you choose to believe USAH financials thats fine. I am sure there is no conflict of interest in the Junior Council too.

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DM47    0
DM47

8 tenders, that seems like a way for the more preferable teams to be able to stack themselves with the top eligible players. It doesn't state an age limit on the tender either. I wonder if they are just having all these tenders for the initial season. I think this gives the USHL some major competition for the east coast players who can now stay closer to home.

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herbst20    0
herbst20

I think that could be the case in the future until everyone can see what the leave is all about, but for now, the USHL has the name recognition among players/scouts/advisors to get east coast talent.

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Left Behind    0
Left Behind

I think that could be the case in the future until everyone can see what the leave is all about, but for now, the USHL has the name recognition among players/scouts/advisors to get east coast talent.

USA Hockey refused to sanction this league so I would assume they went to AAU which isn't recognized by IIHF or Hockey Canada so it will be interesting to see how this plays out especially when it comes to player movement.

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Bevalaqua    0
Bevalaqua

.. I think this gives the USHL some major competition for the east coast players who can now stay closer to home.

 

I think the best players from the East coast will still find their way to the USHL. It's by far the best league, and the best players want to play at the highest level. My son grew up playing in the East and every top player he played with/against wound up in the USHL. I think the NAHL might be slightly affected by the new league, though...

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minor life    2
minor life

 

I think that could be the case in the future until everyone can see what the leave is all about, but for now, the USHL has the name recognition among players/scouts/advisors to get east coast talent.

USA Hockey refused to sanction this league so I would assume they went to AAU which isn't recognized by IIHF or Hockey Canada so it will be interesting to see how this plays out especially when it comes to player movement.

 

No decision on AAU or independent has been made yet. No one is worried about USAH, HC or IIHF in this group.

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minor life    2
minor life

 

With all due respect to Dilks, he has it wrong. I have spoken to people who were in the room. The funding of how it worked wasn't an official objection, just a big point of contention. Anyone who thinks the USHL and NAHL aren't going to be effected has their heads in the sand and doesn't know the players involved. If the USHL and NAHL weren't afraid of the USPHL, they both would have voted for their Tier II plan which came with a Committee recommendation for approval.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

 

 

Nice find herby, and solid reporting by Dilks. ............... This:

 

 

Not all agreed with that decision, but as mandates go, keeping youth hockey fees lower probably ranks higher on the list for USA Hockey than creating another Tier II junior league.

 

No doubt. IMO you need the pipeline full and don't want to be too top heavy. Not sure how Mr Jones would feel about ponying up an extra couple hundred for 6 yr old johnny to play to support the NCDC.

 

But with that league playing in rec arenas owned by team owners and the footprint reasonable they can keep costs lower than say the NAHL. In those arenas they won't be getting much from ticket sales nor will they have much, if any, advertising budget. It follows not much sponsor money with few there to see their advertising.

 

I wish the new league the best but man it seems so tribal and xenophobic. As always any action brings unintended consequences. Lets hope those are good ones for the sport and the kids.

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Mr Ricochet    3
Mr Ricochet

 

 

With all due respect to Dilks, he has it wrong. I have spoken to people who were in the room. The funding of how it worked wasn't an official objection, just a big point of contention. Anyone who thinks the USHL and NAHL aren't going to be effected has their heads in the sand and doesn't know the players involved. If the USHL and NAHL weren't afraid of the USPHL, they both would have voted for their Tier II plan which came with a Committee recommendation for approval.

 

 

Can they play, and stay solvent, in rec rinks with 100 fans watching at 6 bucks a pop ML? Can they keep all but homesick kids in this Eastern rec arena league (ERAL) with the lure of the USHL? ............ An NHL team will send its scouts to a USHL game or an NCDC game?

 

W

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minor life    2
minor life

Rico, these guys are billionaires. They own the rinks they play out of. These guys have more money than USA Hockey has. Several NHL people involved with USPHL, several influential people.

 

The USHL and NAHL know that NCAA scouting budgets are being cut. With more than half the NCAA programs located in the USPHL footprint, that means high visibility with lower travel costs.

 

The business model for the NAHL and USHL has proven to be a money loser. Not a break even. Lets see how many teams fold or move this summer and next.

 

Do you want to move to a city and play in Cedar Rapids or Bloomington? Or do you want to play in Boston? Why would the USHL have showcases on the east coast if they didn't understand the value of those markets and the players in them? Why would the NAHL be so desperate to expand into the East? Because they know what is coming.

 

Too many people are over valuing the lure of the USHL and NAHL. In the east they are just another set of initials, and the majority of kids that left, only left because it was free to play. The lure is not the level of play and it is definitely not the exposure the USHL and NAHL provide. It was only because it was free to play. The USHL and NAHL lose their only advantage with the USPHL having a free to play division.

 

The USHL and NAHL now also have no idea what the competition is doing. They wont have to operate under the same rules. Wont have to abide by compensation rules, or import restrictions.

 

The official reasons for the denial are that the USPHL had 11 teams, when Tier II calls for 12 teams after the NAHL changed the rule from 8 teams this summer. Why did they change the rule? Because they knew the USPHL was coming. The second official reason was because they USPHL wanted to play 50 regular season games. The NAHL changed that rule to 60 this summer as well because they knew what was coming.

 

Lets all take a step back and look at what this is. It is a power struggle over tryout money. That's it. Without all the massive tryout camps with 200 players per camp, the USHL and NAHL business models fail even more. With more competition is larger population markets, those tryout numbers get diluted.

 

With players and parents figuring out these tryout camps are really just a scam and less than three percent of the players attending an open camp ever make a team, you have trouble in the consumer marketplace.

 

The powers that be are afraid of competition. They should be, and now they just pissed the competition off. Dumbest move in USA Hockey recent history.

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BackCheck    0
BackCheck

The USHL showcase in Youngstown OH is considered the east coast?

 

Actually, it was at the UPMC Lemieux Sports Complex in Cranberry PA, probably about 20-30 minutes outside Youngstown. It's the practice facility for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

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minor life    2
minor life

They have also done events in NY. All I am saying, and I am no big USPHL promoter, is the koolaide being sold by USA Hockey, the USHL and NAHL isnt as sweet as they are telling you.

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