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Possible USHL expansion in Kansas City

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gbpuckfan

ESPN on Kansas City's NHL aspirations:

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/20312842/nhl-kansas-city-target-future-expansion

 

The Kansas City Youth Hockey Association was formed in July 2015 by merging six area associations into one governing body. Hunt is one of five members of the executive board. There are plans to build an arena for a junior team in the amateur USHL in Overland Park, Kansas.

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kwey24

KC's NHL aspirations: A horrible idea.

 

Best leave KC to the ECHL and, potentially, the USHL. It will be a stretch for KC to support both an ECHL and USHL team, although I do believe it is possible.

 

People may be inclined to cite the Nashville Predators; but, let us not forget that the Predators were established in Nashville BEFORE the Tennessee Titans. Nashville has no MLB team (no disrespect to the AAA baseball team; but, it's not the same). KC has the Chiefs and the Royals (and the Wizards of the MLS) and the University of Kansas.

 

I noticed San Jose and Columbus are also cited. The Sharks are still the only team from the Big Four (NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL) in San Jose. They do have the Earthquakes of the MLS and the Earthquakes have a long history of a decent fan base in San Jose, but San Jose is, obviously, a dramatically different situation than KC. San Jose was perfectly timed. Columbus also had no major league sports team outside of the Blue Jackets (MLS team notwithstanding). Columbus does have Ohio State and that's why, between the Blue Jackets and the Buckeyes, there is not room for an NFL, MLB, or NBA team. Their AAA baseball team does quite well, though.

 

This all factors into why I felt it was imperative that the NHL move into Vegas NOW and I'm glad it played out that way. There's no guarantee Vegas will succeed long term; but, I would have guaranteed failure if the NHL had not beaten the NFL (and maybe the NBA someday, too) to the market.

 

There aren't, actually, a lot of markets that'd I'd offer up to the NHL as good expansion ideas. Quebec would easily be number one were it not for the fluctuations between the U.S. and Canadian dollar. Outside of that, Seattle would be next, given that Seattle has some history of supporting three teams at one time and the NBA is not there anymore (not to say that Seattle would be guaranteed success). After Seattle, I'd put Houston next, although there are significant complications with Houston. But, Houston is HUGE and there is A LOT of money around Houston. That said, we see how Dallas struggles some with attendance and I'm certain Houston would do no better. So...

 

In terms of where it would be geographically handy for the NHL to add a team, Seattle is definitely at the top of the list.

 

Now, were Seattle to gain an NHL team, the future of the Thunderbirds would definitely be in question and possibly even the Silvertips.

 

One interesting market might actually be San Diego. Now that San Diego has lost the Chargers, and the Padres always suck, there's a base of sports fans there in need of a team. The Chargers didn't move because they had a total lack of fans. Not true at all. Believe it or not, I'd argue for San Diego over Kansas City (although, KC does already have the NHL-caliber arena).

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TheShow

KC's NHL aspirations: A horrible idea.

 

Best leave KC to the ECHL and, potentially, the USHL. It will be a stretch for KC to support both an ECHL and USHL team, although I do believe it is possible.

 

People may be inclined to cite the Nashville Predators; but, let us not forget that the Predators were established in Nashville BEFORE the Tennessee Titans. Nashville has no MLB team (no disrespect to the AAA baseball team; but, it's not the same). KC has the Chiefs and the Royals (and the Wizards of the MLS) and the University of Kansas.

 

I noticed San Jose and Columbus are also cited. The Sharks are still the only team from the Big Four (NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL) in San Jose. They do have the Earthquakes of the MLS and the Earthquakes have a long history of a decent fan base in San Jose, but San Jose is, obviously, a dramatically different situation than KC. San Jose was perfectly timed. Columbus also had no major league sports team outside of the Blue Jackets (MLS team notwithstanding). Columbus does have Ohio State and that's why, between the Blue Jackets and the Buckeyes, there is not room for an NFL, MLB, or NBA team. Their AAA baseball team does quite well, though.

 

This all factors into why I felt it was imperative that the NHL move into Vegas NOW and I'm glad it played out that way. There's no guarantee Vegas will succeed long term; but, I would have guaranteed failure if the NHL had not beaten the NFL (and maybe the NBA someday, too) to the market.

 

There aren't, actually, a lot of markets that'd I'd offer up to the NHL as good expansion ideas. Quebec would easily be number one were it not for the fluctuations between the U.S. and Canadian dollar. Outside of that, Seattle would be next, given that Seattle has some history of supporting three teams at one time and the NBA is not there anymore (not to say that Seattle would be guaranteed success). After Seattle, I'd put Houston next, although there are significant complications with Houston. But, Houston is HUGE and there is A LOT of money around Houston. That said, we see how Dallas struggles some with attendance and I'm certain Houston would do no better. So...

 

In terms of where it would be geographically handy for the NHL to add a team, Seattle is definitely at the top of the list.

 

Now, were Seattle to gain an NHL team, the future of the Thunderbirds would definitely be in question and possibly even the Silvertips.

 

One interesting market might actually be San Diego. Now that San Diego has lost the Chargers, and the Padres always suck, there's a base of sports fans there in need of a team. The Chargers didn't move because they had a total lack of fans. Not true at all. Believe it or not, I'd argue for San Diego over Kansas City (although, KC does already have the NHL-caliber arena).

 

 

Columbus is 100% a "strike while the iron is hot" market. The book "Chill Factor" was a great (and fun) read. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00THMCG90/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

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Maiden

Let's look at major markets.

 

New York 3 teams, Los Angeles 2.

 

Why not a second team in Toronto? Chicago? even Montreal?

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TheShow

Let's look at major markets.

 

New York 3 teams, Los Angeles 2.

 

Why not a second team in Toronto? Chicago? even Montreal?

 

I personally would love a second team in GTA. The leafs will die on that sword though.

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kwey24

Second team in Toronto: They could pull it off, eventually, if the Leafs let them... I still can't believe the expansion fee was $500 million. That's actually way more than I believe it should have been and I think we'll struggle to find an ownership group that would shell out that much to be a second team in the GTA. A second Toronto team would take a long time to slowly gather fans. I mean, the GTA isn't full of people who hate the Leafs just waiting for another NHL team. No, they're the Cleveland Browns of the NHL. (Well, not for long--Toronto has some fantastic young talent.) Believe it or not, Cleveland Browns country extends up into Erie, PA.

 

Would be 100 percent against a second team in Chicago. The balance is just fine with the Hawks, Wolves, and the Steel. If the Joliet area got an arena, I'd be all for them getting a USHL team or maybe even an ECHL team (or maybe SPHL or FHL). But, a second NHL team? No. Almost the whole state is Hawks territory. Nobody is going to suddenly switch allegiances to some second Chicago team, especially not right now with the Hawks being the Hawks these days. (Now, there was a time when the Wolves were almost the 31st NHL team...)

 

Three teams in New York: And boy I hope the Devils get better soon or we may be talking about a team having to relocate. How interesting that there is now talk about a new arena again in Long Island. The Islanders do, indeed, have a following.

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minor life

No second team in the GTA. Any team proposed for that area would have to purchase territory rights from the Leafs and Sabres. That price will be cost prohibitive to put it nicely. Somehwere in the one billion dollar range.

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DetroitRocks

I agree with KWEY, I think San Diego now becomes an interesting option if a suitable facility becomes available. Big population and no team to compete with in the winter with great, close rivalries. And plenty of money in that area to make it work on all levels. And plenty of players would want to go there as well.

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Maiden

I agree with KWEY, I think San Diego now becomes an interesting option if a suitable facility becomes available. Big population and no team to compete with in the winter with great, close rivalries. And plenty of money in that area to make it work on all levels. And plenty of players would want to go there as well.

San Diego supports the Ducks franchise well.

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kwey24

Maiden: To make sure I understand, do you mean they support the San Diego Gulls well (Anaheim's AHL affiliate) or do you mean both the Gulls and the Ducks?

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Maiden

Maiden: To make sure I understand, do you mean they support the San Diego Gulls well (Anaheim's AHL affiliate) or do you mean both the Gulls and the Ducks?

From personal knowledge there are a lot of Ducks fans in the San Diego area who regularly attend home games.

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kwey24

If San Diego ever did end up an NHL team, I'd fully endorse and recommend the team be called the Gulls. There's just a long history of San Diego Gulls hockey (various leagues, but...). San Diego would need a new arena, though. There has been a proposed new 18,000 seat arena in Seaport Village. Out of Seattle, Kansas City, Houston, and San Diego, San Diego is the market most ripe for the NHL taking (with the Chargers having moved). No market I listed is as perfect as San Jose was, or Nashville, Columbus, or even Vegas. If San Diego were to explore a new NHL-caliber arena, I'm sure the NHL would take some interest and there'd be very good reason for such interest. (That said, I really, really worry about the $500 million expansion fee being a significant barrier to the NHL expanding further and I do think 32 teams is viable-just watch AHL and KHL hockey if you don't think we can support 32 NHL teams.)

 

My son ended up with a Gulliver bobblehead (Gulls' mascot), a Gulls sticker, a Gulls towel, and some Gulls hockey cards by attending Marty Wilford's hockey camp in Des Moines this summer. So, we have a strong Gulls presence now (I have always liked the Gulls back from the early 90's in the IHL)...

Edited by kwey24

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Mr Ricochet

No stadium for the San Diego Chargers = no stadium ever for an NHL team.

 

Out of the question to have it privately built? Thing about the hardliners losing a franchise is after a few yrs with no major league teams they soften a bit. ...... In other words the landscape may change a bit in 3-4 yrs in San Diego.

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kwey24

Maiden: The group that and has been looking at San Diego is AEG (Anschutz Entertainment Group). It was actually part of a much larger potential development. This article is a year old, but here it is:

 

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/entertainment/sdut-seaport-village-could-house-new-san-diego-arena-2016jun26-htmlstory.html

 

The article, interestingly, cites the Sprint Center in Kansas City as proof no sports team tenant is necessary.

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BackCheck

Well, I had lost track of this and decided to see if anything new was up. Bad news everyone. Looks like the opposition to the arena has won.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2017/09/11/bluhawk-hockey-plan-appears-to-have-skated.html

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/community/joco-913/article172946596.html

I found a pay-walled article

Quote

Lamar Hunt Jr. confirmed that he no longer plans to bring hockey to BluHawk development in Overland Park, but said a new move is in the works.

I can't access the rest of the content to see if it even mentions if the 'move' is related to the USHL team. I've seen other recent articles that Hunt is still looking at KC as an NHL expansion possibility. Whatever it is, it seems a lot more doubtful we'll see a KC expansion team by 18-19.

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Mr Ricochet

Thanks, BC.   We're behind the news as both of these articles you found were from September........ Noticed in one of the articles the arena was to seat 7,500.  That's too big for 99% of USHL franchises with Sioux Falls being the exception.   Don't build a 5k ft house only to realize you only use 1,500 sq ft and go broke heating and maintaining the other 3,500 sq ft.

I think these folks watched the movie Slapshot too many times and think hooligans will be roaming the hood.

Neighbors, however, were not on board with the hockey plan in particular. They organized and turned out by the dozens at council and planning commission hearings, saying the hockey fans would create a traffic hazard for nearby streets and could block up traffic on the already-busy arterials.

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BackCheck
2 minutes ago, Mr Ricochet said:

Thanks, BC.   We're behind the news as both of these articles you found were from September........ Noticed in one of the articles the arena was to seat 7,500.  That's too big for 99% of USHL franchises with Sioux Falls being the exception.   Don't build a 5k ft house only to realize you only use 1,500 sq ft and go broke heating and maintaining the other 3,500 sq ft.

I think these folks watched the movie Slapshot too many times and think hooligans will be roaming the hood.

 

 

Last time I checked on the story was August and things seemed to be proceeding. I was wondering how things were progressing this morning and was a little shocked by the news.

From my understanding, the area is pretty busy and residents were concerned that weekend events where a couple thousand people were arriving and departing at peak times was going to be a mess. there was also a lot of push at the start back from using sales tax revenue.

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Mr Ricochet
32 minutes ago, Maiden said:

There's more to an arena than a USHL hockey team. My guess is 7,500 was for concerts.

Maybe.  Was told when buying a trailer buy one too big as you never know when you'll need the space and if you do you'll have to buy a new one.  Ok, but that's an extra grand.  A 3,500 seat arena is 20-30 mil less than a 7,500 seat arena and 20-30 mil is a lot to lay out for a few concerts. 

Which brings me to another thought, the multi use arena.  Has one been built and if so has it succeeded?  Skjodt tried, no go.   Hunt tried, no go.  Is it a pitch to get the community behind it?  That it'll be used yr round in an effort to get some tax dollars?  Is it the only way a hockey arena can break even?

Call me frugal or shortsighted but I just love the Dubuque model.  No pretentions that we'll fill the thing 300 days a yr, moderate cost to build relatively speaking and a damn fine facility for what it's intended for. 

If you have the population, like Naperville in the other thread, a building like that would fill with hockey fans and hopefully that's enough to pay the bills. THEN look at soccer, lacrosse, HS hockey/Bball/wrestling tournaments and/or a home for a local ACHA type program.

I like to swing for doubles and use speed/skill to stretch it to triples and if the opportunity is there head for home but gimme the sure thing double.  You won't catch me popping up.

 

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Mr Ricochet
28 minutes ago, BackCheck said:

Last time I checked on the story was August and things seemed to be proceeding. I was wondering how things were progressing this morning and was a little shocked by the news.

From my understanding, the area is pretty busy and residents were concerned that weekend events where a couple thousand people were arriving and departing at peak times was going to be a mess. there was also a lot of push at the start back from using sales tax revenue.

Yea man, traffic sucks.  It's a concern for every community and quite frankly the whole of this countries infrastructure sucks.  And yea who wants their taxes raised? 

Said this a million times my tax dollar is my entrance into civilized society.  Gimme good schools, roads, police, fireman and I've gotten a fair shake for my money.  Build a park, ball fields and a library where quality of life is improved I got my monies worth.  No taxes means the vikings and other hordes are comin for my family (an analogy). 

Does a multi use facility fall into the above category of a community benefit?  I guess that's for each community to decide for hemselves...    This ain't a major league franchise owned by a billionaire taking your tax dollars mind you.

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MuskiesFan4Ever
23 hours ago, Mr Ricochet said:

... Which brings me to another thought, the multi use arena.  Has one been built and if so has it succeeded?  Skjodt tried, no go.   Hunt tried, no go.  Is it a pitch to get the community behind it?  That it'll be used yr round in an effort to get some tax dollars?  Is it the only way a hockey arena can break even?

FYI... the Tyson Events Center (TEC) is a multi use arena.... pitched and built as such with the intent of the Musketeers being the primary tenant.  A $21 million Vision Iowa grant (tax dollars) along with another $30ish million in corporate/private/local funding got it built on the "cheap" back in 2002/03.  I think for the most part it has been a success.  Although its not a money maker for the City of Sioux City it has been good for the dollars it has drawn into the city.  The TEC hosts many college tournaments associated with the NAIA, including the NAIA Wrestling National Tournament, NAIA Women's Volleyball National Tournament, and the Division II NAIA Women's National Basketball Tournament.... and for many years the USHL Fall Classic until the league decided to take it away.  All of these events plus concerts, monster trucks, rodeos, circus, etc bring a lot of cash into the city and surrounding areas which is always a good thing.

On a side note... the TEC is now almost 15 years old and in dire need of upgrades to compete, somewhat, with much newer facilities north and south of Sioux City.  The city has discussed a lot about upgrades to the TEC but so far little has actually been done.  The City most recently decided to contract out the management/promotion of the TEC, and another local facility, to a 3rd party vendor called Spectra.  Not sure if Spectra will do much of any updates to the TEC or what... details are still being negotiated with the new vendor to take over operations sometime next year.

Edited by MuskiesFan4Ever

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TheShow
4 hours ago, MuskiesFan4Ever said:

The City most recently decided to contract out the management/promotion of the TEC, and another local facility, to a 3rd party vendor called Spectra.  Not sure if Spectra will do much of any updates to the TEC or what... details are still being negotiated with the new vendor to take over operations sometime next year.

 

My condolences to that...

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Storm Chaser

As the league sits right now, I'm not so much for expansion but just overall good health of the individual franchises. I'd rather have 12 healthy teams than 20 teams with doubts.

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Mr Ricochet
11 hours ago, Storm Chaser said:

As the league sits right now, I'm not so much for expansion but just overall good health of the individual franchises. I'd rather have 12 healthy teams than 20 teams with doubts.

Agree.  Guess our worry as fans of the league is Bloomington.  Watched a bit of their home opener with YT and thought it would really be a shame to lose a franchise in Bloomington.  The arena is first rate, great HD feed with overhead cameras at center ice and above both nets and it's in the league's footprint.  Ownership puts a solid product on the ice and the last 2 coaches in Williams and Watt are very good........

 

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