[Primis]

I've heard or read in several different places now about some ECHL southern possibilities.

Roanoke and Greenville have resurfaced, as has Richmond several times.

The Columbia Inferno are probably never coming back at this point.

However the most-interesting one to me is Greensboro, which consistently comes up. If in fact something happens with Charlotte, Greensboro might make a lot of sense. Greensboro has a less-than-stellar history with the ECHL and hockey. However the Coliseum is struggling mightily and apparently the city is having to pump millions into it annually. So they're apparently pushing hard to get a hockey tenant back in, even though the Coliseum's enormous capacity and size would be overkill for an ECHL team. They simply want a hockey team back into it where they can sell advertising. They have UNC Greensboro for hoops and a minor indoor football team, but 30-some home dates for a hockey team would help them immensely.

[minor life]

Primis, on 22 January 2010 - 11:11 AM, said:

I've heard or read in several different places now about some ECHL southern possibilities.

Roanoke and Greenville have resurfaced, as has Richmond several times.

The Columbia Inferno are probably never coming back at this point.

However the most-interesting one to me is Greensboro, which consistently comes up. If in fact something happens with Charlotte, Greensboro might make a lot of sense. Greensboro has a less-than-stellar history with the ECHL and hockey. However the Coliseum is struggling mightily and apparently the city is having to pump millions into it annually. So they're apparently pushing hard to get a hockey tenant back in, even though the Coliseum's enormous capacity and size would be overkill for an ECHL team. They simply want a hockey team back into it where they can sell advertising. They have UNC Greensboro for hoops and a minor indoor football team, but 30-some home dates for a hockey team would help them immensely.

Richmond is pretty much a done deal, could be announced pretty soon. With Charlotte most likely going to the AHL by moving the Canes AHL affiliate from Albany, the ECHL has a franchise to place. They could place it in Albany but thats not likely, Richmond is more likely. With another ECHL team rumored to be moving up to the AHL as well, this leaves ECHL franchises available. The question is, with the AHL already having 29 active franchises, and Dalas needing one, coupled with Oak City coming into the AHL this coud get sticky fast unless some deals are already done. Could the AHL be abandoning the 30/30 rule? As I said, this will be a summer like no other before.

[minor life]

This came out 3 minutes after I made my posting...

http://www.timesunio...?storyID=892117

[Primis]

minor life, on 22 January 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

This came out 3 minutes after I made my posting...

http://www.timesunio...?storyID=892117

Good stuff, ml. That rumor shad been hot the past few days...

There have been grumblings regarding Hartford which ties in to all of this. Albany may become NYR's ECHL affiliate then, or there've even been some rumors that the Rags will put their AHL team in Albany and abandon Hartford altogether because Wang wants to give up on Project Lighthouse and put the Islanders there instead.

At any rate, with Peoria today locking on to the AHL for 5 more years and now this going public, stuff is starting to line up already. And we're not even in February yet.


EDIT: As for the 30/30 thing, no I don't see the AHL abandoning that. They very well remember the old IHL and what happened. The "30/30 Rule" currently keeps them honest and from jumping at every available market out there. I think it's necessary that the AHL stay the course on that or else they're going to find themselves exactly where the old IHL did.

This post has been edited by Primis: 22 January 2010 - 11:19 AM

[Miracle on Vanrick]

Charlotte to make major announcement Wednesday

I stumbled across this over on ITB. It looks as though the Checkers will be announcing they are heading to the AHL next season. It will be interesting to see if the ECHL expands into other southern markets this coming summer with this announcement. Augusta has announced they will be back but competing in the SPHL in the coming season.

The crazy "off season" of franchises shifting has begun!

[sullivant]

One would have to assume Albany is on the ECHL's wish list. A perfect rival for Elmira, and another northeast team to help the league out.

[Miracle on Vanrick]

Johnstown to relocate to Greenville ,SC?

The local news out of Greenville reported it Friday night and now the rumors are flying. The Bi-Lo arena board is having a meeting Monday to approve a lease deal for a new team stepping into the arena in Greenville. Across different boards many fans are speculating they will be affiliated with the Hurricanes organization.

Another rumor floating around is that the Charlotte Checkers franchise may be heading out west. The San Diego Gulls may be coming back to life.

[Chaulker]

If Johnstown leaves, and Wheeling goes belly up, that leaves only 3 midwestern E teams. Seems like quite the stretch to me.

[minor life]

Johnstown is pretty much a done deal. Wheeling will move if this happens, the Brooks brothers wont fold the team.

[Hit Somebody!!!]

Toledo, Cincy, and K-Zoo do what now?

Makes one wonder about the possiblity of something changing in the Midwest this summer. IHL holding onto weaker teams and possibly adding 2 teams, and then what is going on in the ECHL. This would be a prime time for Hockey minds to come together and do the smart thing, put egos aside and put together a stable midwest league.

[Miracle on Vanrick]

Its official: Johnstown is moving to Greenville, SC

Quote

The Chiefs are the only original member of the ECHL remaining in the same city since the league formed with five teams in 1988-89. Johnstown has fielded an ECHL team for 22 seasons.

This post has been edited by Miracle on Vanrick: 14 February 2010 - 09:07 PM

[Primis]

It's really too bad if they're gone from Johnstown.

To me, this tells me the ECHL knows something in the midwest or northeast. They've said they wanted another market or two in the south (especially after losing Charlotte to the AHL), but would they be willing to lose a northeastern team to do it? Sounds to me like they're maybe fairly confident in gaining a couple other markets in the northeast and/or midwest, or else I don't now that it'd have their stamp of approval.

Maybe they know or feel confident they can nab Albany? Or Springfield? Or both?

Or maybe there've been talks behind closed doors and they figure on absorbing some IHL markets?

I don't see that Kalamazoo, Toledo, and Cincy have anything to worry about right now though. For one, I still don't know that this means anything for Wheeling, and secondly, even if it did mean the end for Wheeling as well there's still too much up in the air to say they're in any "trouble".

[Chaulker]

Just some thoughts:

I enjoy how people (not on this board, but on every board I'm on) can find nothing wrong w/ the ECHL losing teams. "They'll find other markets" "The AHL is losing teams that they can grab up" To me, that's desperate if they are looking at failed AHL markets. For one, how are those fans going to feel dropping down a level?? Even if the E goes into Springfield/Albany, those AHL teams were drawing poorly (around 4 grand a game?) What happens when they go down a level, less fans. If they lose 500 fans, which is a very small drop, I imagine it would be more like 1,500, that puts them at 3,500 a game. If the E goes into an ex-AHL market, it's a big fail. Both those cities have had the AHL for years now, it's a different situation then the QC's, which by every account, has been a success and we are all familiar with those reasons.

Then we here about the possibility of Richmond, again, a market that's already failed. Greensboro? Another failed market. And for the ECHL, why are they letting one of their first markets (Johnstown) pick up and move? At least the IHL attempts to prop up a team w/ history like Flint, be it more because they need the amount of teams, but lately, that franchise is taking a small upward turn, making them more appealing to future ownership, especially w/ new building management.

I am one that is down on the IHL quite a bit right now, but every time the E is getting ready to lose some teams, it's "Not a big deal". Well, E fans from all over, I'd say brace yourself for the summer, cause from everything that I'm hearing early on, it ain't going to be pretty at all, and I don't think they're going to replace a lot of markets, maybe in number of teams, but not fans or financial viability.

The E is rushing into cities, much like the IHL does, trying to sustain a certain number of teams. They are trying to be the prime affiliate of the AHL/NHL, but does the NHL/AHL care?? Not if they are making deals with the CHL for the same types of affiliates.

Personally, I feel that the NHL/America hockey needs to step in a make this right. The cost of fronting a AA affiliate is way too much. Why are they piling a bunch of money into the USHL, when some of it could be used for the much needed AA markets/prospects?

Note: This is not a knock against K-Zoo, it's a knock against the E.

Edit: Add in Roanoke to another future E team, that has failed.

[Primis]

Chaulker, on 15 February 2010 - 07:26 AM, said:

Just some thoughts:

I enjoy how people (not on this board, but on every board I'm on) can find nothing wrong w/ the ECHL losing teams. "They'll find other markets" "The AHL is losing teams that they can grab up" To me, that's desperate if they are looking at failed AHL markets. For one, how are those fans going to feel dropping down a level?? Even if the E goes into Springfield/Albany, those AHL teams were drawing poorly (around 4 grand a game?) What happens when they go down a level, less fans. If they lose 500 fans, which is a very small drop, I imagine it would be more like 1,500, that puts them at 3,500 a game. If the E goes into an ex-AHL market, it's a big fail. Both those cities have had the AHL for years now, it's a different situation then the QC's, which by every account, has been a success and we are all familiar with those reasons.

Then we here about the possibility of Richmond, again, a market that's already failed. Greensboro? Another failed market. And for the ECHL, why are they letting one of their first markets (Johnstown) pick up and move? At least the IHL attempts to prop up a team w/ history like Flint, be it more because they need the amount of teams, but lately, that franchise is taking a small upward turn, making them more appealing to future ownership, especially w/ new building management.

I am one that is down on the IHL quite a bit right now, but every time the E is getting ready to lose some teams, it's "Not a big deal". Well, E fans from all over, I'd say brace yourself for the summer, cause from everything that I'm hearing early on, it ain't going to be pretty at all, and I don't think they're going to replace a lot of markets, maybe in number of teams, but not fans or financial viability.

The E is rushing into cities, much like the IHL does, trying to sustain a certain number of teams. They are trying to be the prime affiliate of the AHL/NHL, but does the NHL/AHL care?? Not if they are making deals with the CHL for the same types of affiliates.

Personally, I feel that the NHL/America hockey needs to step in a make this right. The cost of fronting a AA affiliate is way too much. Why are they piling a bunch of money into the USHL, when some of it could be used for the much needed AA markets/prospects?

Note: This is not a knock against K-Zoo, it's a knock against the E.

Edit: Add in Roanoke to another future E team, that has failed.

Truthfully, Chaulker?

I hate the idea of Richmond or Greenville getting teams again. There ARE some good southern cities as hockey markets, but they're not it. However, I can understand them wanting some teams for SC and Gwinnett (which both do a good job supporting their teams). I just wish there were better options.

I guess the only thing I can tell you is that some of this shifting is overdue. Some of these really small northern markets have been on borrowed time for a while now, in terms of sticking around the "AAA" level. There was a time in the AHL when it had teams in Cape Breton, St. John's, Moncton, etc... when those keeled over some of the other northeastern teams probably should have as well, but the other markets weren't ready yet so they've stuck it out.

To answer your question shortly though, the ECHL isn't fighting for its life even if it loses 3 or 4 teams. The IHL is if it loses 1 or 2. That's the big difference. I don't see the ECHL being in any mortal danger.

As for J-town... I'm really saddened to see them go, but I understand why. It's a smaller market than Kalamazoo, and they have struggled to get people to come out to the games for years and years now. Neil Smith says that the lease w/ Cambria County is up and that they knew rent was goign to be going up yet again for next season, and they know they can't afford it.

I guess if you want to point fingers for who is to blame for some of these smaller teams, point them squarely at the arena ownership and managing groups. They're the ones that are making it cost-ineffective to run a minor hockey team, and they're the ones that prefer to use rent as their income instead of trying to find other ways to supplement their rent so that hockey operations can continue. And for Cambria County, they now just lost 30-some home dates for advertising to be sold, so they just screwed themselves actually. They just lost their main tenant. Had they decided to keep rent the same? They probably could have convinced the Chiefs to stay on board in J-town.

It's these arena management groups that are screwing it up. They're trying to make money like it's a booming economy. Just like happened in Detroit with the Hitmen. Ask Greensboro how well that tactic worked out for them. They drove off several minor sport teams and now are desperate to get something, anything back in because they're bleeding cash from not being able to sell advertising and not having anything ever hosted there in an empty 20,000-seat arena.

[TheGreaser]

I've said it before where east of the Mississippi river is there a good AA hockey market that hasnt already had a failed team? Its the same for the E the I or the SPHL. Places like Springfield or Albany are the best choices out there if they lose their AHL team. Richmond, Greenville or Greensboro have had teams that left in the past but maybe next time around they will do better. Who knows but leagues need to make an attempt to keep growing.

The I is in the same boat. Dayton failed ECHL market. Quad City failed AHL market. Chicago? Failed UHL market. The SPHL is moving in to Agusta. Failed ECHL market. There now where left to go but recycled cities that have had teams in the past. Hopefully each league can do a better job the second time around or do the right thing adn just get together and form one league.

[Thunderbolt]

Primis, on 15 February 2010 - 08:56 AM, said:

I guess if you want to point fingers for who is to blame for some of these smaller teams, point them squarely at the arena ownership and managing groups. They're the ones that are making it cost-ineffective to run a minor hockey team, and they're the ones that prefer to use rent as their income instead of trying to find other ways to supplement their rent so that hockey operations can continue. And for Cambria County, they now just lost 30-some home dates for advertising to be sold, so they just screwed themselves actually. They just lost their main tenant. Had they decided to keep rent the same? They probably could have convinced the Chiefs to stay on board in J-town.

There's a lot of truth to this. Venues with 70-90 events a year (or even less!) are assigning their overhead costs disproportionately to their primary tenants rather than booking more dates... with predictable results. This happens a lot with independent venues not run by companies like SMG, since those venues are less like to have the buying power of their management companies to book those dates. It;s why L.C. Walker booked the West Michigan Blizzard games - because $2,500 a night is money in the bank.

[Miracle on Vanrick]

TheGreaser, on 13 February 2010 - 03:18 AM, said:

I've said it before where east of the Mississippi river is there a good AA hockey market that hasnt already had a failed team? Its the same for the E the I or the SPHL. Places like Springfield or Albany are the best choices out there if they lose their AHL team. Richmond, Greenville or Greensboro have had teams that left in the past but maybe next time around they will do better. Who knows but leagues need to make an attempt to keep growing.

The I is in the same boat. Dayton failed ECHL market. Quad City failed AHL market. Chicago? Failed UHL market. The SPHL is moving in to Agusta. Failed ECHL market. There now where left to go but recycled cities that have had teams in the past. Hopefully each league can do a better job the second time around or do the right thing adn just get together and form one league.

I agree 100% with that statement. The ECHL markets that are coming back into play failed because of the management that was in place. I think it is safe to say most of us have seen markets that had poor management turn around and become successful with new leadership.

Great post Greaser!

[Chaulker]

Chiefs plan to move franchise to South Carolina

It's official


I never thought of the major role that arena's play, and it makes total sense.

I think it's fine that these teams are willing to try a market again w/ new management/ownership, but to me, the AA model is just not financial viable w/o perfect decision making. Somewhere along the line, they need to fix this problem.

I don't even want to bring the IHL into this discussion....they have made every poor choice there is when it comes to running a league. Great concept, poorly executed.

[Chaulker]

Side note: Slap Shot is on Vs. right now, kinda ironic.

[Mr Ricochet]

Quote

“Our losses, to say six figures is deceiving,” Smith said. “It was in the hundreds of thousands. I’ve been committed to keeping the team here since the day I got here. I’ve always kept my word. Financially, it became impossible. I don’t know if people know how close we came to folding last summer. We went through that tough time, but we were able to save it for one more year. It was a different situation, but we were able to rescue it for one more year.”

A sad truth in many cities. Owners just can not lose this type of money year after year!!

Help me out. The ECHL Northern Division next year will be Kzoo, Toledo, Cinci, Elmira and Wheeling. Assuming Wheeling is back they go with 5 teams? If Wheeling isn't they go with 4 teams? Will they move any other ECHL cities to the Northern Division?